Overview of Mackem_Beefy
Recent Posts
Submit thesis with published papers
Whilst the peer reviewed papers will not officially be part of the examination process itself, their presence shows a commitment to producing high quality documents worthy of journal publication.
Their presence may swing a dodgy viva in your favour if you are borderline between say "Downgrade to M.Phil" and "Revise and Resubmit". The methodologies in the papers and replicated in your thesis may also convince a dubious examiner that they work, having been accepted by a peer, and dissuade them from requesting major corrections.
Sometimes, we need to show off. Sometimes, we should hide some publications.
Whether humanities or social sciences and physical sciences, there are crooks and liars...
Retraction watch is an interesting glance if you're having a bored five minutes. I know of a couple of cases where people have got clean away with out and out fraud, say where a rig failed to work so a student made up the data from what the results might work out at in theory.
I know of one case where a PhD was awarded on the basis of a computer program producing perfect results with a given set of inputs. A few years later, the program was re-examined and a different set of inputs was made for a new set of data. It output exactly the same results as before and not results expected for the new data set. It turns out the student couldn't get the program to work properly and had inserted some code to output this fixed set of results. The University decided to let the PhD award stand to avoid the adverse publicity withdrawing the award would bring.
There was also a beauty in Germany that made the papers at the time, where a supervisor challenged his student's results based upon biological samples of which there was no sign of. He even got his tea mildly poisoned for his trouble as a warn-off. Again the Uni. decided against recinding the PhD and both student and supervisor were quietly moved on.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
revise and resubmit
It's a strange thing, different universities have different rules. Mine had i) pass no corrections, ii) pass with minor corrections (3 months), and iii) revise and resubmit (12 months). And that is all.
I know some universities like Manchester and Birmingham have a 'six month' minor corrections option. Normally the examiners will want to see the thesis again but there will be no second viva.
Anyway, well done. It's a really stressful process. 6 months leaves you knowing where you stand. You are well able to get the Dr, but need a little more time to do it.
There were seven outcomes at my old place: i) Award degree without corrections; ii) Award degree with minor corrections to be done in one month (though internal examiner can still review these); iii) & iv) Request major changes without or with second viva within six months; v) Revise and resubmit within 12 months with second viva (though it's been suggested this viva could be skipped if the resubmitted thesis was good enough) ; vi) Award MPhil; and vii) Fail.
Options iii) and iv) have now been removed with instead a simplified interim option to make minor revisions to the satisfaction of one or both examiners.
I would prefer it if Universities would have the same outcomes across the board so that the PhD and MPhil degrees can be considered virtually the same no matter which University awards it. Most Universities seem to stipulate three months for so called minor corrections, which may include some moderate but not catastophic changes to the thesis. One month for such may not allow sifficient time and six months can suggest more major changes than are actually being asked for. If you're doing corrections, six months sounds worse than three if you're in a job interview.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Quitting PhD in humanities subject, will I be guaranteed an MPhil?
Very unlikely unless you submit a thesis of the MPhil level. You still need to go through the viva. Some universities may give you an MA or MRes if you finish part of their research training at the early stage.
Malcontent still needs to submit a viable thesis to be able to qualify for MRes / MPhil and from what he says, he'll still need to edit the thesis and complete conclusions.
Malcontent, it may be you still need to look at the case study to generate a viable thesis for MPhil. This you would have to cross-check with your supervisor. If you've still a similar amount of work to do for both then I would aim at the PhD. For me, the extra study would have been two extra sub-sections within the methodology and discussion chapters, another 3,000 words.
The way I read the above, you've significant extra work to do to generate this viable thesis for either qualification so I would combine the extra case study to go for the PhD. The alternative is you quit now and have nothing to show for your 5 years.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Advice Needed Regarding PhD Choices
@Moc, I certainly did not mean any offense however I do certainly see how it could be construed that way, across an internet post, without the benefit of knowing me personally. I do apologize.
1. I do believe as humans we know the difference between good and bad, no matter how much we try to complicate the subject with philosophical gymnastics. You know when you are hurting someone else. Thats my personal belief.
2. I start my PhD in a matter of weeks, so no bloated sense of self importance here i'm afraid. Of course life is complex. However there is parking attendant complex and active duty soldier complex. Not that one is more important that the other, but that one has more risk involved that the other. Empirically, you will have an easier time getting "the average job" than becoming a Russel Group university Professor. Thats statistics.
Remember you said and I quote "all I want is to be settled in life and be earning a decent living." What I took form that is "I would like to earn a decent living, in a timely manner, so I can get on with getting a house/family/ or whatever". I just told the truth. Research academia will not provide you with those things you listed as most important to you in that manner. Its not for everyone, and I am sorry you take offense to that.
Fled,
To be fair to both of you I initially took the same interpretation as you and MurderofCrow's comment can be taken two different ways. There's nothing wrong with either interpretation.
Seeing other people moving on with their lives is surprisingly major pressure for many doing a PhD as many of us do put our lives on hold to a degree to see it through. Family and friend peer pressure to start a family can be quite considerable even if unintented.
I do understand that's not what MurderofCrows meant and he just wants a regular, normal 9 to 5 routine.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Advice Needed Regarding PhD Choices
MurderofCrows,
Reading the above, you appear to have made your decision to withdraw and you feel that is right for you. That being the case, you have made a brave decision and best of luck for whatever you do.
The above said, you appear to have made the decision to at least earn the Postgrad Diploma before leaving. That indicates you have already thought this through and you will leave having something to show for your efforts. One point is I would also stay in place until you have a job to go to - it's easier to find work if you are economically or otherwise 'active'.
The PhD was the right decision for me and I feel that now after the fact, even though events after (2nd post-doc) meant that long term I have not benefitted professionally (though I most definitely have personally). If I had not done it, I would have always wondered "What if?".
Likewise, you don't see the point of continuing and placing your life on hold for another three years if you are not going to gain any real value from it. This I understand and respect. That being the case, rather than make yourself unhappy for the next three years then it is perhaps better you call it a day, hopefully making way for a more motivated candidate eventually to take your place.
You have tried and answered your "What if?" It does indeed sound if calling it a day for you at least is probably the right choice. As I have in the past seemed to know what was right for me, you likewise seem to know what is right for you.
All the best for the future,
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Advice Needed Regarding PhD Choices
@Simon - I take your points, and it does sound like you have experienced some bad characters in your experiences. Now make no mistake, what I affectionately call a "Tier 1" professional is not a bully, the heads of dept, or even all senior profs.
Of course the field is plagued with "bads", but that is life. Its always the same. There are those who are successful through luck, charisma, political prowess or outright ruthless... but in the end, they never get the Nobel. Their work is their least celebrated trait. They know how to work the system and get their 80K GBP + a year and that's all.
These however are not the individuals I speak of. Those who really "get the job done" know who they are and need no further explanation from me. However, there is a lot of bellyaching on here, and at least 2-3 "I am not successful because of my supervisor from hell" threads a month.
THAT is the more dangerous kind of BS. The type of BS that allows you to think that all of your woes emanate from some malefic entity, whose life mission is to crush your research aspirations. The kind of BS that shelters you from the truth that you are the only person getting in your own way. Are there obstacles thrown at you? of course. But a lot of people need to stop crying, embrace the suck, and get off their asses and get going.
Fled,
I was one of those people who pushed hard to 'get the job done' during my PhD. I knew there were problem characters around, but as I wasn't adeversely affected I didn't think anything of it.
During 2nd post-doc I finally ran into one of those a***hole characters or malefic entities head on as my boss. They do exist and believe me if you encounter them in a position of authority, they can be deal breakers, they can literally destroy a person's PhD or post-doc experience.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
paper authorship question
Satchi,
I was in the same situation as you in that whilst I was unemployed I continued to produce papers based on my PhD work (plus some extra not included in my PhD) in the hope it would improve my employability.
Once you've left the University and you clearly hold intellectual property rights, it's up to you whether you list one or both of your supervisors or just list who you want (even just yourself). Affiliation is also up to you, though it looks more professional to keep University affiliation on your papers.
However, your supervisors will no doubt still be providing employment references and as a courtesy you may still consider listing them as co-authors.
I chose to list my first supervisor who did contribute meaningfully and not my second supervisor who as the aforementioned "administrator" provided no direct contribution.
I also included my immediate predecessor (I was last of three to work on my project) as a thank you for his early assistance on two papers, but only my primary supervisor thereafter for a further three papers.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
paper authorship question
In truth, what's important is that you get first authorship. No one really looks at the others, except perhaps the last one if they want to know whose group it is.
PS: I'm presuming you're not talking about co-first authorship. That really is a racket!
Racket sums it up at times. A few (not all) supervisors have pet projects, hire PhD students on the cheap with a research council grant then on the back of the students' work gets their name on papers doing hardly any work themselves. I know of one case where they provided the project and then told the potential student to apply for the funding themselves. I advised the student not to take that project as the supervisor came across as an a***hole.
My first supervisor was quite good and allowed his students first authorship, actually contributing to the papers. My second supervisor was no more than an administrator and I don't remember him actually contributing to a paper even though he insisted on his name being listed.
In another group in the same Uni., the supervisor's name appeared as the sole author despite the student doing the work externally at an industrial sponsor. That one was a puzzler and low on the part of the supervisor.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
paper authorship question
Hi Ian
thanks for your reply! I honestly don't remember this part about signing away the intellectual property rights, would this be in my offer of scholarship letter? Sounds really dumb but here goes anyway--how can I verify this information at this point?
love satchi
More often than not, the student will retain copyright over the material produced. However, see if you can check terms and conditions of your studentship either with the University registrar, via your University website or even your supervisors (though they can have their own 'take' on this, not quite in line with University terms and conditions).
There have been instances mentioned on here where the University has retained rights, though unless there is a commercial reason this seems to be the exception rather than the rule. If you are research council funded only or self-funded, it's unlikely the University has retained copyright.
If you have an industrial or outside sponsor, then there is a chance the sponsor may want retain copyright or force confidentiality for a given period, say to apply for a patent or for other commercial reasons. If there is a separate agreement, you will probably have a copy or you can ask to see a copy either via the registrar or your supervisors. How it works at your University may vary slightly.
SimonG is right in that you will remember if you signed something along these lines, however, it is amazing what can be hidden in the smallprint!!! :-)
It's worth a quick check if you're not sure, however, I wouldn't be too concerned and my thinking in this instance is in line with SimonG's.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Viva questions - spoof answers - if only they knew what we were really thinking!!!
This is hilarious! So true. I can relate to a lot of this - the overriding sense of getting nowhere and frustration of going backwards so much! Thanks Ian - I am glad to have popped out the other end of it...phew thank God!!
I can vouch for number 43 as my viva was delayed a month so my own Uni. supervisor and department could host a workshop!!!
How you end up coming back to question 33 either directly or indirectly (i.e. you are offered a job) is quite clever and has been well thought through. It's in direct contrast to being awarded your PhD and ending up unemployed!!!
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
paper authorship question
Hi everyone
there may have been a thread on this that I've missed -- could someone kindly enlighten me on authorship of papers.
Once we have been awarded the PHD, the work becomes ours?
So if I write a paper and include a co-author who has not been affiliated with my phd, is this within my right to make the decision (to include so-and-so)?
Another question is that if I had 2 supervisors but now I write a paper based on my phd results and do not include them as co-authors, am I ok to do this?
thanks
love satchi
1) If the co-author has contributed directly to the some of the work, include as a co-author. If involvement is indirect, then acknowledge at the end.
2) PhD supervisors are normally included as co-authors even after the PhD is finished due to their direct contribution. This is seen as a common courtesy and acknowledgement of their efforts in your PhD. However, if the data you are using has not been included in the PhD then this may be used in a paper without the PhD supervisors being named as co-authors.
Also, if a supervisor leaves and their contribution has at best been indirect, they may be downgraded to an acknowledgement.
--------
Note my answer to your second question is assuming the intellectual property rights to the data are yours and you have not signed these away either when signing up for the PhD or later on. You would then need permission to publish the data and more than likely lead to your supervisors and other possible people (industrial sponsors?) being included as co-authors.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Viva questions - spoof answers - if only they knew what we were really thinking!!!
Let's not forget this little document folks!!!
A version of this was handed to me during my PhD and most of it rang true in a light hearted way as I progressed through it.
I could only wish for a square 39 back during the dark days of write-up!!!
Oh and congratulations of passing!!!
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Advice Needed Regarding PhD Choices
TreeofLife has summed things up pretty nicely.
The only thing I have to add is you've tasted the 9 to 5 then going home and switching off. That is a telling remark in itself if I compare your state of mind with my own back during my PhD days.
I'd come from 9 to 5 to do PhD and loss of money and regular hours didn't bother me. I wanted a challenging project that I could engage in and my PhD gave me that. Whilst the thought of just crashing when I got home was nice (in the early days I did get the chance), that challenge and my motivation to meet it were huge motivators for me. I enjoyed it, even in retrospect the killer stages of write-up later on as I saw the thesis take shape (though I didn't see it that way during write-up).
That difference in motivation may be what brings you through the next couple of years or what makes you decide to call it a day. Chat with a personal tutor, student counsellor or even a trusted friend, just to sound yourself out.
However, if that feeling of wanting the 9 to 5 with your evenings your own is partially influenced by seeing others moving on with their lives or missing out on seeing friends and social life because your having to work at unsocial times, bear in mind a PhD is only for a small portion of your life after which you can move on. It's not for ever.
Although I didn't suffer from mid-term blues or impostor syndrome there are plenty that do. If there is an element of this, it's something that normally passes as you gain more skills and knowledge. A PhD is a marathon, not a sprint and although we start green and inexperienced, struggling with concepts and new knowledge and methods, this does not last with most of us. I felt I grew as a person as I progressed through my PhD.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Against all odds - I passed my viva today!
Well done and a hearty congratulations.
Now if circumstances will allow, go drown yourself in copious quantities of alcohol. :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Getting a job after your PhD? You're having a giraffe!
I have seen people study extremely 'niche' topics which seem unlikely to tie in with any future job. Not only that, but when you look to see who's supervising them, it becomes clear that the supervisor is just creating little 'mini-me's' and ending up with a huge publication list - the supervisor being the one person who can probably make a living out of the niche area. I agree with Fled that you need to have an eye on the value of your topic outside of your PhD department, or at least to be grabbing as many transferable skills as you can along the way.
Spot on, especially the remark on 'niche' topics. The funding system and the financial attractiveness of hiring a PhD student compared to a research associate encourages that.
The outside world's perception of a PhD moving on as soon as a better opportunity comes along or being overqualified for a position (and thus easily getting bored with it) doesn't help matters. But how do you educate the world about what exactly a PhD is?
I'm still glad I did it, but as I said I feel I've got little value out of it despite a reasonable publcation record.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
