Overview of Mackem_Beefy
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Getting a job after your PhD? You're having a giraffe!
I do actually have a job but I am not using my PhD. It was something I did until I graduated but looks like I'll be doing it for the duration. I just fancy doing something that equates to all those years of PhD work really. Even my boss said that she expects me to leave now I have the doctorate under my belt. Maybe I should just count myself lucky that I do have a job and stop whinging on.
I was sort of under the impression that just by completing a PhD, it would be a passage of right to apply for any position even if the research topic is not related to it. Surely employers are aware of the determination and dedication required to be successful in a PhD, aren't they? I thought the phone would never stop ringing the day after I graduated with offers of gainful and fulfilling career opportunities but I have thus far been clearly misguided.
Welcome to reality lad. I admit I went into my PhD not thinking much more about the aftermath except I wanted a research or development-type career and I thought the PhD would help. However, in part due to the overqualified tag and in part due to the problems I've elaborated on elsewhere with my second post-doc, it's not turned out that way and I'm virtually back where I started.
I'm simply grateful to have a job after the nearly a year it took to find work after the second post-doc. I've been in that job a few years now.
Until the University system stops producing more PhD graduates than are actually needed, people will continue to have their illusions shattered once they emerge with a qualification that does little to enhance prospects no matter how you sell your acquired skills. The truth is a PhD student is cheap labour. A research associate costs more. Guess what Unis. etc. are going to do.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD Supervisor Needs To Own My Soul
However, I did not attend the graduation ceremony and left on pretty much awful terms and was even told that I was the worst postgraduate student they had ever had in an email written to me from the lead supervisor. It was a catastrophe from start to finish, I was exhausted, very disappointed and had made more enemies than friends at the institution.
I know exactly what you're saying from my second post-doc experience. There's plenty of us who've ended up "under a cloud" for different reasons. When the post-doc starts with a senior Prof. who you've only just met saying to a new colleague you're a "second choice, a stop gap measure" and "we'll just have to make do" as though you're not there whilst you're actually in the room, you can gather how the post-doc went. Unfortunately, that second post-doc ended any chance of a research or academic career and it also ruined my reference history (no reference from him) and previous long good record. I found work nearly a year after though my career has now taken a different direction - I'm back almost exactly where I was before my PhD (though don't regret doing it).
The relationship during PhD between supervisor and candidate (this also applying at post-doc) can be a deal breaker not just for the PhD but for your subsequent career. Yes, there are bad students who need to be moved on, but there are also examples of poor supervision or management. In academia especially, accountability for this is limited with no alternative to your supervisors and the tendency of academia to close ranks if someone is seen as a "trouble maker". Students can simply have their funding stopped come the next review or on reaching their mid-term progression. If employed, you are edged out or your contract is not renewed (you see out the contract with minimal duties as it's easier than sacking you).
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Taking 3 months to a year off to travel after science PhD - bad idea?
I realised there was a tongue-in-cheek element to what you said Ian :) But by dangerous ground, I meant we don't know anything other than what Elflick has told us - whether or not to have kids can be a huge issue - I personally know several women for whom a reversal of that decision isn't a possibility, for example.
Elfick said she had decided herself not to have children a few posts back.
Nevertheless Chickpea, I understand what you are saying. I shall be more circumspect in future when I try to lighten the mood.
Given how down some people are sometimes here over their circumstances, a little well judged levity and positive talk later as their mood clearly improves I believe sometimes helps.
Ian
Taking 3 months to a year off to travel after science PhD - bad idea?
Ian, I enjoy your posts and from my brief time on here so far I consider you something of a 'voice of reason'. But (you knew that was coming!) Elflick has told us she's decided not to have kids, she doesn't want them and it's been a big thing for her. It's dangerous ground to say the 'right man' can fix this - let's just trust her on this one :)
:-) :-) :-)
Chickpea, I think you've slightly misunderstood - I was being a little tongue in cheek.
I didn't say anything needed "fixing". I just meant never rule anything out as we don't know what tomorrow will bring.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Mid 40's - Am I Too Old To Do A Phd ?
I am in my mid 40's and did a postgrad degree many moons ago. Is it too late to undertake a Phd? Will I struggle to get funding.
PhD candidates tend to fit into two groups. The first are those coming straight off undergrad degree or masters with no real previous works experience. They're still bright eyed and bushy tailed, and the PhD that was initially an extension of the student experience becomes their first real encounter with serious work and long hours. A few very bright ones get the shock of their lives and I know two in this category who drifted off and called it quits. In fact, these younger returnees are the only failures form my own former department I'm aware of.
The second group are returnees. They can aged from late 20s upwards into their 50s. These people are looking for a fresh start, possibly a little world weary (definitely me) and back to do something original and new that will reinvigorate their lives and careers. I was in that second category, returning at 30 and really wanting a project that contributed something new and original to my chosen field. Whilst a few realise they've taken on too much, I feel some of the returnees are often better equipped with life skills to withstand the rigours of PhD. They've often seen plenty real world stress and are perhaps better able to manage it.
I know of a 40 something person doing a funded PhD whilst I was doing mine and they are now a lecturer. I also know of a 50 something tackling a PhD part-time alongside his everyday job. He simply considered his PhD an extension of that.
If you are searching for funded PhDs, then your chances should be the same as everyone else's. An academic is looking for a suitable candidate and it should not matter whether the 'right' candidate is 22 or 52. So start looking and applying and best of luck in finding the right PhD.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Taking 3 months to a year off to travel after science PhD - bad idea?
Mackem_Beefy I know what you are saying but I just think this is one of those things that really does depend on the people you ask. I personally don't think 1 year out after a viva makes any difference, since you are likely to get papers published during this time and therefore you look active even if you are not, and I know my supervisors and other academics I know agree with me, but I am fully aware other academics may not have these same opinions.
For example, a postdoc in my lab worked in a shop for a year because he couldn't find another job. Still got his postdoc in the end though. Another post doc worked as a science tech in a school for a year. Still got a postdoc in the end. There's lots of stories like these. I guess we don't hear about the ones that don't manage to get a postdoc after taking time out from academia though.
Hazy Jane makes some good points.
Tree of Life,
The first sentence of you response sums things up exactly - the view you receive is very much dependent on the person. I'd love to a mid-life gap year, but personal circumstances will not allow. I guess my views are fashioned by the hard time I had returning to work after my bad second post-doc.
Elflick,
I understand clearly travel is your dream. My own intermittent travels have taken me to Tibet (China out!!!), Uzbekistan, India (Ladakh was good), Peru, Myanmar and many other places I will always remember. I will say beware Russia!!! Grand Canyon stands out big time.
Hazyjane has indeed made some good points and if you can fit in a few papers and a couple of conferences, you will still be fresh in the academic memory so to speak.
Oh and never say never as regards kids as in a flash, you could meet the right man and suddenly have a cherished little baby one on the way.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Is it enough to apply PhD without a undergraduate degree?
Both the people with HNDs I knew of that were upgraded to Masters rather than settle for a Post-Grad Diploma did not go beyond Masters. The first I didn't know that well and once the Masters was finished, there was no further contact (to be honest, we had very little time for each other).
The other person I knew quite well and from the career development plan paperwork I saw, as he was working as part of a University Institute the plan was to ask him to do a PhD part-time alongside his job. However, this never came to fruition as the University hierachy decided to merge the institute with another, which in the end effectively closed it. He moved on and his PhD never happened (I don't think he was too bothered to be honest).
The pathway discussed above is not a common one and anyone on an HND offered the chance to upgrade to a Batchelor's level degree should seriously consider it if they believe they want to do further study afterwards. That said, people's personal circumstances are different, meaning unusual paths may often be followed.
In many cases, one extra top-up year may be suffiicient to turn the HND into a degree. This may be the easier route to take - provided the HND is fairly recent, one option might be to upgrade via the Open University.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Who's doing the weirdest PhD?
Time to revive this - any more strange PhDs people have heard of???
Taking 3 months to a year off to travel after science PhD - bad idea?
TreeofLife,
I understand what you're saying and if you have the right interviewer and right sales pitch, I'd be more inclined agree. However, I'm keeping in mind that things are a lot tougher jobwise out there than they were. When going for interviews for various jobs I was sometimes queried about even a couple of months out of employment and told bluntly that my employment hunt would be more straightforward if I was in work or at least economically active.
I also remember a conversation with an institute director at my PhD University, who's view was a technical degree had a half life of say two years after which it didn't have much value compared to a fresh graduate. He was only really interested in taking on fresh or 'active' people for his research posts and PhDs.
My perception is gap years are great when the economy in general is in good health. However, the current situation is such that you have to give yourself every chance in the job market or possibly find yourself either unemployed or in a position not meeting your required skills for quite some time. The overqualified label doesn't help.
If someone wants to have a gap year, I'd suggest between school and Uni. is the best time, with between undergrad and postgrad being a less favourable option (ref my above conversation with the institute director). I genuinely believe taking a gap year before entering employment proper when you have little previous proper works experience may be perceived as an error in the current climate. From an employer perspective, I'd take the one who was wanting to make an immediate start and not the post-gap year person who may not be so able to hit the ground running.
Someone taking a midlife gap year will probably have a good few years previous experience to sell themselves on when they come back, but if someone with little experience decided to do a gap year before employment then they may find themselves at a disadvantage.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
outright failure - oral examination - viva
Yes, Graduate, make your statement more clear. Make it a bit beefy.
Oh very funny!!!
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
P.S. I'm actually quite skinny. :-)
Taking 3 months to a year off to travel after science PhD - bad idea?
Hi elflick,
If you can financially afford taking time off, then why not? Everyone makes their priorities.
As for the:
It seems like you automatically assume that childcare and career sacrifice is something that automatically falls on women! In some countries (and hopefully soon in the UK too) maternity and paternity leave can be equally divided between the partners. * Sigh*
Point taken Dr. Jeckyll, however, I think he meant he wasn't going to be doing the actual child-bearing.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if the roles could be reversed. :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Taking 3 months to a year off to travel after science PhD - bad idea?
If you were going to have a year out, then taking it BEFORE your PhD would have been wiser. I like the travel game too, however, if for whatever reason you find yourself out of the loop it can extremely difficult to find your way back into a research-based or academic career.
My circumstances were different to yours. I firstly did my PhD followed by a good post-doc at my PhD University. I then did a second post-doc at another University that went very, very badly. Although I finished this second post-doc, problems due to me not having a reference from the second post-doc Prof meant moving into another research-based or academic position was nigh on impossible, despite a good working record up to the beginning of this second post-doc (I'd worked for a reasonable period in R&D before my PhD). In fact finding any new job was hard enough and I only found my current industry-based job after a year of looking. I had found myself out of the loop and the time lost also counted against me.
One added problem to be aware of is the oversupply of PhDs compared to say post-doc positions. If you took even three months out, newer PhD graduates looking to move straight into a post-doc would have a slight advantage. Additionally, many post-docs are taken by people writing up. If you leave it anymore than a year, those newer graduates may well be perceived as fresher and slightly more up-to-date with their skills.
If your next move were to be back into the real world and industry, a gap year is certainly less of an issue. There, your ability to sell yourself may be sufficient to overcome the one year gap in your CV.
Take a few weeks off, but any longer and newer graduates will be fresher in the minds and memories of of the academics advertising post-doc positions.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
outright failure - oral examination - viva
I have to admit I'm not making sense of the above.
"FailedGraduate", give yourself a couple of days then try to explain more calmly what you believe has happened in chronological order.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
post nominal letters help please
And, er, it took me three attempts to get that right!!! :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
post nominal letters help please
With both prenominal and post-nominal letters, the more senior qualification is always that which is furthest away. If you have academic and professional qualifications, the professional qualifications (MBPsS) always come after the academic ones.
i.e. "Matthew Thorpe Dip Couns B.A. B.Sc.(Hons) M.Sc. PhD MBPsS"
Assuming you don't have honours for the B.A. but do for the B.Sc., then the B.Sc. whould take precedence and come after the B.A. (if both are with honours and equivalent, then use alphabetical order - B.A. would still come first).
If you choose to use prenominal qualifications where relevant, this becomes:
"Dr. Matthew Thorpe Dip Couns B.A. B.Sc.(Hons) M.Sc. MBPsS"
Never use "Dr." as a prenominal designation and "Ph.D." as a post-nominal designation together as this misrepresents you as being "Dr." twice.
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As an aside, with prenominal qualifications the more senior qualification goes to the outside, furthest away from the name.
So you might have:
"Rt. Hon. Revd. Dr. Sir Matthew Thorpe MBE MP Dip Couns B.A. B.Sc.(Hons) M.Sc. MBPsS MP"
The above assumes you're a member of the Privy Council, a vicar and have a knighthood. The Privy Council designation (Rt. Hon.) takes priority over the position of divinity (Revd.), which itself takes priority over the doctorate (Dr.), that taking priority over the knighthood. Also assuming you have an MBE and you're one of that corrupt band known as members of parliament, the MBE goes before you MP designation and also before your academic then professional qualifications (both are always post-nominal).
Googling shows how often people get these in the wrong order and I bet I'm wrong with at least a little fo the above. :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
