1) Subject area
2) Funding and living expenses
3) People
4) Locality

I was lucky to find a funded PhD at my nearest University (a 'New' University) in a subject that utilised my first degree skills base. Everything fell into place and I didn;t have to worry about extra expenses from relocation. I was offered another PhD at a top five UK University (also local), but selected the 'New' University as the project ticked more boxes.

Also, the professor running the research group had a very good PhD pass rate. He would discourage submission unless he was 99% certain that the candidate would emerge from viva with no more than minor corrections. The conversation with current students was very informative and even then a bit of banter and pisstaking about football helped me have a more positive opinion. There were some strange people there, but these I largely avoided over the four years and I had a nce quiet life where I could just get on with things.

I think at PhD the department or research group is more important than the University name. You really need to go and see what the people and facilities are like before you decide, as well as make sure the subject matter suits you.

When I was interviewed by the other Uni., I did not feel completely at ease. The woman who would have been my supervisor was alright and I was allowed to talk to people at interview. However, I was not taken to meet people of the actual research group I was going to be working with (this point only registered later after choice).

My choice was justified some years later as I went to this other Uni. for post-doc. The Professor in overall charge of the research group was bullying, controlling character, I was assigned a mentor who tried to retain project ownership and I had a miserable year there. If I'd gone there for PhD, I would have probably quit or failed. There but for the grace of God went I.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

NoPhDMan,

I had a similar experience to you doing a post-doc at a second Uni. after my PhD. Many of the comments you make I can relate to directly. I would not be surprised to learn it was a certain University and department (don't name!!!).

There is a University Ombudsman in the United Kingdom at the website I list.

However, the expectation is for you to have exhausted the appeals process at your own University before you resort to using them.

Have you contacted the Student Union at your former University (as a PhD candidate, you are technically a student) as they also may be able to offer advice as regards appeals and the complaints procedure?

I normally encourage people not to rock the boat, however, it appears you have nothing to lose by complaining and appealing.

If they penalise your wife because of your complaint, then that is extra cause for complaint (though how you'd prove that is a different matter).

Did you keep a log of events, a diary or e-mail correspondnce from the time as these could act as proof in your favour? I kept data and e-mail correspondence from my second-postdoc just in case the situation resulted in legal proceedings.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Contradirony,

The OP has received some good advice here and I'm sure he / she will make an informed, adult decision based on that and other advice. My general remark was not meant to hinder.

Rtyr4y7756,

Have you been awarded your degree? If not, might there be extenuating circumstances by which you could appeal to the exam board (health, family problems, etc.). 'Wowzers' does give some generally good advice.

I didn't mean to be demeaning to your circumstances. The point I was trying to make is with still increased numbers of people going to University, it is harder for people with lower grades to compete as you've probably discovered. I do feel for you at this difficult time.


Wowzers,

I understand what you are saying. As regards placing your grade on a CV, then I would agree leaving the grade off may help the OP. At interview stage, you're right in that a potential employer is more interested in your experience than your degree and having the degree a tickbox the potential employer is able to check off if holding a degree is necessary or advantageous to the job. So do what will get you the interview and just say you have an honours degree in whatever subject you have done on your CV.

My own experience is, however, on reaching final interview stage or being offered the job (and in many cases, first interview), I AM asked for my degree certificate (batchelors and above). At this stage, if the employer doesn't care about the grade then fair enough but this will not be the case everytime. Only for one job (which I did for five years) was I not asked for my certificates.

That said, this forum is also read by countries outside the UK and Europe and we do have North American posters. They live in an employment market where human resources can be more throrough and proof of qualifications berequired. Our North American posters may have a different viewpoint on this issue. The OP has not said where they are from.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

The information 'wowzers' gives on the Open University is certainly interesting and an option I've never thought about. If you can seriously up your grade via the OU whilst working in a relevant occupation, this is definitely a way forward. Good thinking 'wowsers'!!!

However, 3rd class is a hard place to start from and my suggestion to resit as an external to gain a 2(ii) might still be considered if time does not permit the OU study route. But if the OU route is a possibility then I'd consider it. I'll have a rummage on the OU website when I have time.

'Contradirony', I wasn't trying to be unhelpful. However, what value does a 3rd class honours degree give to a person if serious rectification work is now needed to put that person back on course? You can leave the degree classification off when applying for a job, but what if an employer asks for a copy of the certificate as proof of qualification at a later date? That makes the candidate look dishonest.

Whilst I've not been asked for the level of my degree in interview, I certainly have been asked for the certificate as proof of having the degree later in the interview and assessment process.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

You might have an outside chance but funding is extremely unlikely. 3rd class is not looked on with much merit these days.

There are a few possibilities, but none might be what you want to hear.

1) Look for some sort of employment for starters and put the Masters idea on ice for now. Resit your exams next year as an external candidate next year if possible, but bear in mind your resit mark will be restricted to a maximum of 50%. This might edge you up to 2(ii) again depending upon University regulations.

2) Resit your last year if possible, however, you will again probably be restricted to a maximum of 50% for the last year. As for option 1, this might nudge you up to 2(ii).

3) Apply to do a post-grad diploma instead. If your marks are good enough part way through, you might be upgraded to masters. However, again your 3rd class degree will probably count against you. A few years works experience may help you with this option as it might with a masters application.

Funding will be next to impossible to obtain no matter what you apply to do and a career development loan may be your only option. Depending on your country, a standard student loan might be possible.

I've watched what is considered acceptable change over the years with more people going to University and more people being available with higher grades as a consequence. Where a 3rd a long time ago might have been okay to obtain a basic job or an unfunded masters way back, a 3rd is no longer acceptable. Similarly, 2(ii) might have been okay in some cases but now a 2(i) is needed (or a 2(i), a 1st).

I do wonder if the 3rd class category should be done away with now, as it doesn't do much for the employability or consideration of the person obtaining it wanting to do other things.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I find myself also sympathising with your situation. Although my PhD was based on a science / engineering project (a high temperature materials engineering project with potential automotive, aerospace and power generation uses) that had been running for six years before I joined it (two other lads had gained PhDs from it), I also feel my PhD has not been of real value to me since I finished it now some time ago.

After two post-docs (the second not so great at a different university on biomedical devices - good project, not nice people) I tried to bail out back into the real world. After nearly a year of unemployment (though helping my former PhD supervisor with a book chapter), I found a quality assurance position with no relation to what I'd done in the previous 8 years. I've been in that position now for ~6 years, staying because of job security.

I'm not alone in this as I know of a polymer engineer who after finding himself on a series of post-docs, decided to jump ship and train to be an airline pilot where he now has a career. I'm sure there are others who feel the same too (I wonder how Delta is doing).

I DO NOT REGRET THE PhD all the same as it gave me the chance to do something original and ground-breaking in my chosen field. If I had my time over, I would still opt to do it (though a certian young lady at the time could have changed that) with the one change being not to do that second post-doc. However, my PhD was that niche, I believe I'd have faced the same problems eventually.

My advice is to always have a fallback Plan-B, so that if things go wrong you can take another path. It may be you might have to look at some sort of retraining to change direction and make yourself more employable. That thought I have to admit has gone through my own mind.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Charmless lad,

I refer back to my PM to you on the other forum.

Beth has given you some good advice there, but give yourself a little space to get sorted in your own mind before looking for someone else. Being single for a while ain't so bad.

If she'd been willing to give it a go if you have moved, then perhaps it would have been worth a go. If she's wanting to move on with her own life at the moment (and it does sound like that - she wants make a move herself from where she is back to her home city as you said to me) then she needs the space to do this. If she wants to get back with you once she's done this, then so be it. You've finished on good terms and if you at least stay in friendly contact, you never know. Withdrawing would achieve nothing except leave you without either a job or the PhD.

As said in the PM, the institute you're at is world renouned (I happen to know Charmless a little on another foum) and you're well set up for the PhD, with what I know is a good funding package. What you feel now will pass. Give it a little bit then get yourself out for a few drinks when things are not so raw.

You might want to have a quick chat with University counselling (anonymous, confidential) if you're really feeling low.

There's always Sunderland AFC to take your mind off things!!! :-)

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

A real world job with a real life aren't necessarily the solution to your problems. You can find yourself in a job that is equally as bad as regards the conditions you face. That's life. The stereotype of wife, job and kids by the time you're in your late 20s does not happen with everyone (some earlier, some later) and you should not pressure yourself by thinking this way. Let things happen at a time they are right for you. Kids especially are hard work (but also rewarding with it).

You are having a bad experience and perhaps after time out with the help of your GP, perhaps the right thing is to quit (I probably would withdraw under your circumstances). However, not all academic departments are as you describe and many of us have a much smoother ride (good supervision, clearer research programme, results falling into place, etc). I stayed out of any battles during my PhD and first post-doc, which was a really big help.

Not all departments are the same and some people who've had a bad experience in one place successfully do a PhD in a different University, older and wiser. In other cases, people are not cut out for the PhD experience and move on recognising this.

In addition to the bad experiences you are having, I don't think you entered the PhD with a clear picture of people's expectations of you for that particular PhD programme. I go back to checking out departments before you start and additionally talking to current students away from supervisors. This above all else lets you know what you are in for.

You have to want to do a PhD for the right reasons and that for me is to undertake a major programme of research designed to produce original findings and add new data to your chosen field. I went back at 30, once I was sure this is what I wanted to do. You need to ask yourself whether you entered your PhD for the right reasons.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Well here goes with an increasingly rare post from me!!! But Sammyboy right now needs friends.

Your situation is one reason I would always advise people to check the department out they intend to work in before agreeing. I had a generally good PhD and first post-doc experience, but a poor second post-doc experience. The second post-doc, I went against my gut instincts to avoid.

Six papers in a year is unreasonable when you're trying to actually produce data for your PhD. However, this is also a situation that can be taken advantage of as the papers could later be used to form the chapters for your PhD with only a little reworking (restructure into chapters, adjust for new data and findings since the papers were written). The average PhD student normally produces four papers maximum during the whole PhD with many not managing more than one or two papers.

Also your supervisor cannot expect you to drop everything at the last minute to do what he wants. You are entitled to a life and I do think he's bee unreasonable.

You do sound as though the situation has got the better of you and you do sound at breaking point. Go to your GP and talk to him. Some time on the sick if only to get your head sorted and decide what you want to do is exactly what you need - there's health and stuff your supervisor!!!

As regards you parents, it's your life, not theirs. In my case, a very supportive mum was a big help (even though she quietly didn't agree with me giving up a well paid job to do the PhD).

You want a job, be married, have a house and kids as soon as possible? Erm, these things need to happen at a time that is right for you. You really need to sort your immediate problems before allowing your mind to race ahead to things in your life that are yet to happen.

No you don't. But publishing to journal helps indirectly towards a PhD as regards learning required writing style for your thesis.

Journal Publications and Conference presentations are expected if you're a PhD Candidate anyway.

However the reality is most people don't get more than a couple of presentations and one or two papers done by the time they finish due to the time constraints involved.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Without funding, that would be £50,000 I would have had to find given the costs breakdown I saw whilst still back at Uni.

I admire the bravery of anyone who takes on a PhD self-funded.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Bilbo Baggins sums up what you need to do quite nicely. I ended up publishing six extra papers myself without supervisor involvement. If I hadn't, most of my data (I feel some of the more useful data) would have been sitting in the thesis gathering dust and forgotten.

Be succinct in your writing style, don't leave the paper too thin on the ground, but don't overload it either and don't do too many at once in case of multiple corrections. For your first few papers, revise and resubmit is probably your best outcome for the simple reason you learn what is the right level of detail or approach for a paper in your field. That said, different reviewers have different ideas. I myself have been a hard reviewer, though have got my butt kicked back too (quite rightly with my very last paper, which was way too long).

Paper size should be 10 to 20 sides (if you're approaching 30, you've done too much) of A4 and not a thesis, so keep introduction / literature review to directly relevant literature (including your own) and don't launch into a complete history of your subject. That said, ensure there is sufficient review to provide a rationalle for your paper. Methodology and results should keep to the data set or area your are examining in the current paper only. The discussion should additionally comment on how your data contrasts with other literature (where it adds to, complements or contradicts it), but keep statements simple at a couple of sentences at most. Conclusions should be snappy bullet points with perhaps a sentence or two (again no more) on what direction further work might take.

It's amazing how quickly you fill up 10 to 20 pages, especially if there's graphics or tables included.

Finally, don't be disheartened by any knockbacks as Bilbo Baggins says, as you will learn from them. Think simple and snappy.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

That few seems ridiculous to me. A family crisis and that's the leave gone. How does your average American get any decent R&R time?

Even Japan has started to get it's act together with respect to giving ordinary people some decent leave (18 days a year average compared to - so I was told - 7 days some years ago).

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

You might want to read this in relation to your 12 days annual leave stipulation. The USA is the only country where annual leave is not protected by law in the developed world. If sick leave is to be taken out of the annual holiday, that doesn't leave very much at all.

I hesitate to criticise as during the last two years of my PhD, I think I only took 10 days of my 35 days entitlement off each year (UK).

I'm on 26 days back in the real world and I do normally struggle to use it all up.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I know "non" is not a word in itself, however, I've always used a hyphen in the above example.

Is this another example of the English language evolving? An example is 'single quotes' being used where in the past, "double quotes" would have been expected.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)