Overview of Mackem_Beefy
Recent Posts
PhD boyfriend with NO job
======= Date Modified 01 Oct 2012 11:14:20 =======
This thread has focussed upon a couple of themes, that of the stress faced by the PhD candidate in the final days before submission and the effect of this stress on friends and relatives who do not fully understand the PhD process.
Reading the posts, there's an underlying theme of the PhD candidate being conditioned or 'programmed' if you like that what they do is more important that whatever those closest as doing, which can only be seen as blatently untrue. It is important to only the PhD candidate and the beneficiaries of the project and no-one else.
Reading back, although I managed to largely avoid the above trap, I have to admit I did not avoid this completely. I can see also I made mistakes in my handling of people closest to me in that I did shut them out and talk too much about my PhD work and little else.
In the immediate aftermath, I can see some of my actions were aimed at undoing the damage of me seeming to be distant and trying to make up for the fact I was ratty and had at times shut myself away. I started agreeing to everything they wanted to do and most of the time putting what I wanted to do second. This was to make up for during the PhD period, even when not doing PhD work, I didn't stop thinking about it and shutting them out, which was was not fair on people around me.
I am back in the real world like BadHairCut and I guess the last few years has been a slow deprogramming experience with a slow return to normality and a normal, pre-PhD way of thinking.
In otherwords, I'm admitting this thread has slightly modified my opinion in that we must avoid making those around us victims of our PhDs. We must continue think of them.
However, I will comment to BadHaircut that we cannot keep blaming ourselves for everything that went wrong. Provided we educate people exactly what we are doing, we can help them be more understanding of our perspcetive also. It's a two way street.
Furthermore, there comes a point we must stop dwelling in the past and stop apologising for everything we did wrong. That in itself prevents us from moving on and putting the PhD years behind us. If we continue to live in the past, we never truely escape the PhD years and the people closest to us can become equally tired of us making up for the PhD time as they were of the PhD time and our neglect of them itself. You cannot continue to try to keep making it up to friends and partners in the present, if you are to start moving on properly with your own life post PhD.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Incivility and Academia
I am wondering, in general, if doctoral programs tend to be a discriminatory, uncivil and wretched places, or if my perception is colored by my experiences?
It happenes sometimes that someone joins a department that is subject to internal rivalries, making things very uncomfortable for anyone joining it.
On the otherhand, people can find themselves in a department where staff and students look out for and help each other.
I found myself in the latter (friendlier, though not perfect situation) for my PhD and first post-doc. It was the happiest and most challenging period of my life.
For my second post-doc, I found myself in a hostile department where I was clearly wanted. I was hired simply to take up the slack for a post-doc there that had too much work on her hands. In otherwords, I've seen both sides of the story. And yes, at times I was reduced to tears (and I'm a man).
This is one reason I recommend taking a good look around a department and meeting the people before signing on the dotted line,
Referring to you other post about your complaint, I'm of the opinion investigating a transfer if possible may be in your interests rather than giving up completely. The current University would be rid of the problem sitation and using your external examiner's report you could possibly sell yourself to a net University with a potentially friendlier, more cooperative atmosphere.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
RE: To stay or leave, that is the question?
I have to admit I'm not clear on the handling of PhDs in the US, and I only know th ebasic structure. The wide variation in exam board results is bizarre to say the least. It does read as though some internal politics is invloved.
Could you transfer to a different University, thereby you current University is rid of the perceived 'problem' and using your external's glowing report as a selling point to enable the transfer?
I know people have transferred registration over here in the UK and wonder if that might be possible in the US.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Disastrous viva result
Yes, whilst the examiners are appointed by your university, students are often given the opportunity to advise on potential examiners, or are kept in the loop as to who may be a potential examiner. For example, you may attend a conference and meet someone who is in your area of work and who would know the topic well.
That's fair comment and perhaps I should have worded it better. However, whilst you say you would like it if person X was your external examiner to your supervisor it's not the candidate's decision.
I couldn't have got a better external examiner, though she wasn't who I'd have opted for beforehand. I had another name in mind, however, my supervisor went with said lady and it turned out she was the better option.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD boyfriend with NO job
======= Date Modified 28 Sep 2012 09:18:48 =======
Grief, this sounds more than just the PhD and you really are pig in the middle between your parents (concerned about him not having a job) and your boyfriend. You've really unloaded a lot of pent up frustration here.
My advice as regards your parents remains the same, in that you are an adult and capable of making your own decisions. That said, if they're there when you need them (which is looking very likely) that is the important thing.
Your boyfriend is going to be seriously stressed and moody, especially with just a month to go before submission. However, you also describe someone who to me is not a very nice person under the surface. I personally would not tolerate staying with some one who is condescending and belittling. But perhaps that is the stress. Or perhaps he's showing his true colours. You know him best.
In my first reply, I suggested one possibility was to live separately until he got this out his system then sort out things when he submitted. If he is running you down as seems to be the case, then I would advise this as your course of action until he submits. Once that is over, then (not yet moving back in) talk to him, really talk to him and see if there is a future for your relationship. What does he want and what do you want. At that stage, you'll know whether or not it was the stress talking. Just say that you can't handle this situation as it stands and tell him to get in touch with you once he's submitted (one way of letting him really know you're not happy). But let him make the first move and if he doesn't, then you have your answer.
I know under similar circumstances to those you describe in your last post that I'd want some space to decide for myself what I'm going to do and I honestly believe you need to be out of that atmosphere to think clearly for yourself, free of both your boyfriend's and parent's influence (though knowing your parents will be there for you if needed).
As regards the job situtaion, the post-doc world can be one of moving around from position to position geographically. Does he expect this of you and can you live with this? I don't know much about law as a career, however, I gather you need stability in order to progress and develop. Is he expecting you to give up your chances of a life and career for him to be able to follow his? One thing I do know is people can become so wrapped up in their own little worlds that other people's lifes including those close to them can seem unimportant.
However, these are all questions to be answered after he has submitted and he has hopefully got in touch with you. Right now, it sounds as though he needs his space to complete and submit his thesis / dissertation and you to decide what you are going to do. You may find a different, more considerate person re-emerges once the stress of submission is over. If not, then you might need to consider going your separate ways.
You've basically unloaded all your frustrations in your last post and you really don't sound happy with the situation.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
completing my PhD whilst living at home or move on and get married?
======= Date Modified 27 Sep 2012 16:27:12 =======
Organising a wedding at the moment given the pressure you're under it sounds might add more pressure. You'll want the day to feel special and going through the wedding under those circumstances, it won't feel so. It will probably be better to leave the wedding until the PhD is over with if possible.
If you really need to be out of there, would cohabiting with your partner be so bad? Is your partner understanding of the pressures of a PhD? That is an option.
If you really feel strongly you want to wait until you get married before you move in with your partner, are you able to afford a flat by yourself? At least that way, you'll have spcae to concentrate on your PhD work and you'll be able to put space between you, your partner, your family and your PhD.
Will your parents be okay if you move out?
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD boyfriend with NO job
I was in a similar position to your boyfriend, and my ex (then girlfriend) who completed professional training frequently argued with me about my progress, my prospects and the fact that everyone else was moving on in life, while we weren't. So, unsuprisingly we split up.
At the time I was furious about her betryal and lack of sensitivity. Getting a PhD was difficult, a rare achievement, academic job or post docs didn't go on trees, she didn't understand what doing a PhD is like and how important my research was. We fought about money, about the future and almost everything about the situation we were in.
Looking back, I can see things differently. In many ways me doing a PhD was very selfish with little or no thought about the impact on her. My conversations were all about my PhD and topic and I held beliefs about how my degree was better, harder or more worthy than hers, which was very condescending. I didn't see a problem with the bad job market making me earn little, and having to uproot myself and her through transient work. I was working wierdly long hours. At the same time I realise I was quite resentful about how her professional line had more respect than mine, that she was earning more than me and had the better career progression and working conditions.
The sad thing is I don't think I would have even realised this or changed had I remained in academia. Its only after I was forced out a few years ago and started to do something else I even had the perspective to understand that I was thinking this way. Many of my friends who still stayed in research put their families through this, and still hold those views, and there are lots of divorces and break ups (not uncommon, especially of the partner is equally ambitious and has their own plans).
I have no idea of what the OPs situation is, but I see academic life is almost monastic and really does require a lot of give from partners.
BadHairCut,
I think you're being a little hard on yourself. Every decision you make in life will have an impact on a partner if you're in a relationship. The one part I do agree with is thinking your degree was better than hers - you should never think that. In all honesty, did you really think that or are you somehow finding yourself with another excuse to blame yourself for the break-up?
You had your reasons for taking on the PhD, just as your girlfriend had her reasons for following her own path. Relationships take work and understanding, and both of you understanding the other's needs. Did she really understand yours or was she also seeing things only from her own perspective? If so, she may well have handled things badly too.
The one thing we can all do better is to set aside time for friends and family, to listen to their woes and concerns. Looking back at my own time, I believe there should be a space if you like where the PhD does not intrude. If possible, then the weekend or at least one day of it (if you have to nip into the lab to check equipment) should be a PhD-free zone. A few hours late evening before you go to bed (or because of those few PhD-free hours mebbies end up in bed - sorry, couldn't resist!!! :-) ).
However, have a look at what you typed before. I'm sure there are things she could have done to make the situation easier too. As the PhD candidate can't be completely selfish, the other partner can't look at things solely from their own perspective either.
Perhaps the relationship wasn't meant to be and you were completely different people after all. Perhaps the PhD was just an excuse for you both to see that.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD boyfriend with NO job
I've just read you follow-up post. If it is your parents putting pressure on your boyfriend by proxy (i.e. via you), then that makes you obviously pig in the middle.
You need either to avoid the subject of his PhD for the next month or so, or politely tell them the situation is not forever. You and your boyfriend are adults capable of making your own decisions and in extremis this may need to be made clear.
You are correct about the jobs market being difficult for PhDs, both in the US and elsewhere. All he can do is when able, keep applying (ensuring he has the best possible CV / resume in terms of saleability) and hope something comes up. As regards post-docs, if he has a good publication record, that avenue may still be open to him.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD boyfriend with NO job
======= Date Modified 26 Sep 2012 23:36:30 =======
I'll be blunt - this not meant in a bad way.
Just because you've finished doesn't mean he's finished. That's life and whilst it may not seem fair, that's the way it is. On your side, you just want to put the student / education phase of your life behind you. He's not there yet. You may also be a little embarrassed he's still a student and you're now following a professional career - that does happen and is perfectly natural where one partner might be forging ahead and the other is still not quite where the more progressive one wants them to be.
November 2012 is not that far away. He's almost there.
Yes I remember write up and yes, I remember that family and friends found me as dull as ditchwater during it. One of them even put pressure on me to put the PhD on hold to sort out to me another minor issue at the time that he considered an overriding priority. A suspension with six weeks to go would have been crazy.
Right now, all your boyfriend will be able to think about is finishing off the thesis / dissertation (I gather you're US-based) and anything beyond that won't really register. He's come through five years of very hard work and right now near the end will probably be the worst bit for him.
At the same stage, I knew finding a job was important but I just couldn't focus. As it happened, I landed a post-doc within my department and I was free to concentrate on the write-up.
One of the biggest problems a PhD candidate will face is pressure from family and friends who just don't understand what is involved with a PhD. Right now, so close to the end can I ask if you truely understand.
If it was six months to go, then you could argue a case with him that he might want to prioritise job hunting over and above the write-up. He could then write up in his own time, time permitting.
However, at one month to go he's in the final push and other pressures he really can do without. At this stage he needs either your support or space to finish as quickly as possible. Your lack of patience with the situation will be putting him off.
Could you possibly lay off him until he submits? Viva / defence will be shortly after and hopefully that will be it. Just be there and support him.
If this is a really big issue with you and you cannot offer him this support, would you living separately for a month or two without contact until he finishes off and submits be worth considering?
In my case, my mother suddenly intervened and told my friends to back off. This allowed me the necessary breathing space of a couple of months to finish writing up and submit the thesis / dissertation. I'd had a nightmare write-up as I've said elsewhere and thankfully the viva / defence that followed was very straight forward.
I do not mean the above in a bad way and in all sincerity hope you can resolve your difficulties. I'm writing this from the PhD candidate's perspective and how I felt near the end. So close to the finish, his main focus is finishing the write-up off.
Do what is right for both of you. Hopefully, bits and pieces of my blog will help.
http://www.wearthesis.talktalk.net
(http://www.wearthesis.talktalk.net/phdgame.pdf for some humour)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
after viva....
First of all, congratulations and well done on getting through. (up)
I went through with minor corrections. However, I decided I wanted it finished with and did the corrections straight away so kept pushing as hard as I did pre-viva (and it was a hellish write-up period - followed by a strange but relaxed viva day). If I'd paused, I feel I'd have taken a while to get back into gear again as like you, I had a full time job (my post-doc).
The corrections were done by the end of the next day and the three sets of printouts early the following week. The internal had to pass the corrections and he agreed to see them complete printouts done, but pre-binding. Strictly speaking I should have shown post-bound copies to him, however, he recognised that if he didn't agree with the changes it would cost me more money for hard-binding.
Hard binding was complete seven days after and I took the copies to the registrars and I signed myself off.
Although the work was gone, I remained in a sort of tired hypertense buzz for about another week, but gradually coming down off it. I'd gone out for a walk one lunchtime and it was then I realised I didn't have the thesis or the viva hanging over me anymore. It really was over and I found myself thinking "What next?". It was like a plane bouncing along teh ground on landing after a very long longhaul flight. And yes, there was this sudden feeling of anti-climax.
All of a sudden, I felt normal again and I realised my energy levels were returning to normal. My sleep pattern begain to return to normal too and after a couple of months normal life had truely resumed. I guess it's then you can really look back to see what you've really achieved and for a while, enjoy it. That came was when the official notification came through two months after the viva.
I have wondered if coming down off drugs is similar, as to me it felt like I was going through withdrawal. I guess that may be because your body is not going through an adrenaline buzz anymore and it may be because you're not stuffing your body with the caffine you were beforehand to keep going. I honestly don't know - anybody answer this?
One thing that helped was a few months after, I had a decent holiday where I got as far away from work as possible. This I would recommend strongly, finance permitting.
Interestingly, you opted to take a week off after viva and have sort have come down over that week and reached that sensation earlier. However, you'll find you have to remotivate yourself to make that final corrections push. Then it will really sink in. You may find you go through this 'come down' sensation twice as a result. The second time really is the "What next?" sensation.
Again, well done!!! :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
how far in advance?
I enquired five months in advance. Long, long ago when I did mine, I sent out a speculative application at the end of May, I was interviewed for two different PhDs during July and started the one I opted for at the beginning of October.
With you being new to this, take a look at my blog at:
http://www.wearthesis.talktalk.net
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Leaving a funded PhD
Hi Postgrad, I know you asked mainly about paying back and already have received replies about this...and it sounds to me as if you are feeling pretty low right now buttt....
how far through are you-not in years but in actual data collection-research and writing? If you took the extension (continuing to work part-time)
and then worked full time-yes you could finish writing up while working full time. You would have drafts now I take it, so writing up is shaping up the thesis and polishing-making it coherent, etc.
This can definitely be done while working full time-it won't be easy but it is certainly possible. Many of us on the forum are working full time and doing their PhD-and while we are doing it part-time- the reality is many of us do it sort of half and half. There are times when we do very little on it because we are working on something and have a few life issues and then there are times when we are working on it almost full time as well as our full time job. It gets done.
If you took say, the 6 months extension and then allowed maybe another 8-12 months of finishing the write up while working full time, then you are late but you have finished it. The other thing is once you have finished the grant-you can work full time. The rules preventing you from working only apply while the grant is in place and not once it has finished.
Could you move back home for 6 months-sublet your house to students for 6 months, then move back in, get a job and finish the write up?
Sorry if I am being painful with my -"you can do it speech"-but the thing is it is such a lot of time and work to just let go of and I think you might regret doing this. Also while universities used to be more forgiving about these things, they are increasingly becoming far more competitive with regard to future offers. So you probably won't have to pay it back but it is going to be very hard to get another such grant in the future if this happens. Extreme reasons for non-completion or pulling out are accepted (medical or similar) but my observations and conversations with colleagues doing doctorates in the last few years (3-5 since GFC) have been that scholarships and entry are far more competitive and universities don't give many second chances (whereas once they did). Good luck. Think about all of that hard work you have already put into this and know you can finish if you really believe in yourself.:-)
Pjlu,
Unless I've read the above wrongly, Postgrad87's extension is unpaid and July 2013 is the cut-off date for submission. That does not give PostGrad87 much time to complete.
Sub-letting and moving back home seems a plan though, if Postgrad87 can do that.
However, I think Postgrad87's treatment has been nothing short of disgraceful and the Uni. to me is doing a bare minimum to help.
An additional thought. If your new supervisor and 'expert' in the field is 250 miles away and at a different Uni., could PostGrad87 not transfer registration there? It could be difficult and a real longshot, but might be worth looking into. I'm thinking about more ready access to the new supervisor.
Even if not possible would temporary physical relocation whilst writing up not be possible? At the same time, you would need to seek more time as I discussed in my first reply whilst seeking some sort of employment.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Leaving a funded PhD
======= Date Modified 18 Sep 2012 20:24:54 =======
A quick call to the research office should confirm whether or not you have to pay the money back (you don't need to give your name if that concerns you).
Normally terms and conditions can be found online.
You might like to see if you would be entitled to JSA, if you are actively looking for work and while you are job hunting you could perhaps work Frantically on your PhD.
All fair comment Delta. I claimed JSA bewteen the end of my funding period and the beginning of my first post-doc.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Leaving a funded PhD
======= Date Modified 18 Sep 2012 19:31:50 =======
I can't be sure of the Northern Ireland stipend / grant situation as regards repayment, but feasibly how can anyone expect you to pay back grant plus Uni. fees? That said, that's exactly what they're expecting with undergaduates in England (wrong, very wrong).
A few questions from someone who's a long time since through and out the other end:
1) I understand what you say as regards balacing fulltime work with PhD write-up, but that's exactly what I faced juggling first post-doc with PhD write up. But how do you know until you try?
2) Can you do a parttime job whilst writing up your PhD if you feel fulltime is unmanageable?
3) Given your primary supervisor has disappeared for such a long length of time, have you looked into asking for a new primary supervisor? Even if not exactly in your field, general guidance may be possible. Has the Uni. not suggested or advised this?
4) I think as well as an extension, because the situation is no fault of your own you should be entitled to a funding extension. Someone I know got six months extra money from the University itself as a mistake not of his doing, significantly delayed him. Have you asked?
5) If the situation has significantly compromised you, I think you might also have a case for compensation. Have you talked to the student union as they may be able to point you in the right direction as regards your legal situation?
6) An extension to July 2013 is not very much given you've been without a supervisor for 25 months. Have you pushed for longer?
I'm no solicitor, but it seems to me the Uni. has seriously failed you (and the funding organisation) and you have a strong case against them. But before resorting to legal recourse, I would exaust other channels first (rocking the boat is normally frowned upon as you've probably gathered).
Universities normally like difficult situations to quietly disappear and if you left now, I think it would be problem solved from their point of view. However, you've already put in nearly three years and they're only going to give you (at a guess) 9 months extra unfunded when 25 months of supervision have been lost. That's not good enough and I would want answers.
Keep us up-to-date with what happens, as any feedback may be helpful toother on here.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Disastrous viva result
Frazzld,
A small point depending on where in the world you go through the PhD process. Obviously, you've decided to do your PhD outside the UK.
In some countries, the PhD candidate does not have the option to choose their external or internal examiners. In the UK, this is normally organised by the University.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
