======= Date Modified 09 Oct 2011 20:50:59 =======
It sounds like they don't want anything to do with you for some reason.

Apologies for my hard line here, but basically, screw them!!! You have moved heaven and earth to talk to them and they don't want to know. I have to say this, but I wouldn't even bother trying to talk to them again. Further than that, don't talk to them at Christmas and don't even send them a Christmas card. If there's no reaction from them, you have your answer. It's time to move one and forget them, no matter how hard it is for you.

As regards Bfoxy's suggestion of a Christmas pub meal with your family, although well meant why expose yourself to a further round of rejection and hurt. From what you've said, you've done all the running and can't do any more.

I'll put things into perspective. I was close to a girl a couple of years back and my mum and dad both fell ill. First my mum then my dad and it alternated between the two. There were a couple of rows with the girl triggered by a failure to invite her to my house on the New Year. My dad was poorly again. A further row a few days later over my apparent attitude resulted in a complete break-off in contact. She didn't even give me a chance to explain.

The next few months saw my dad go right down the pan and finally he passed away a few months later. She remained in contact with one of my friends and had to know what was happening. The situation was such that my friend was even wary of attending my dad's funeral in case he offended her and she broke off contact with him (he did come). There was not even a sympathy card from her in the middle of all the chaos. It's now nearly three years later and it's clear just what a bad piece of work she was. As for my mum, she recovered after surgery, however, there are other issues still to be resolved with her and I know from the times I describe above that people you can't rely on can become luggage when the going becomes difficult (i.e. the girl I knew).

There comes a point where you have to look after yourself and those you know care. As for those that don't want to know, you will find the only person who'll be stressing or worrying over the situation is you. My advice at least given the efforts you've already made and had rebuffed is to call it a day with them. I know blood is thicker than water, however, they call you the 'Posh One', the one that's 'so bloody clever' and that to me shows that they don't even like you. Why waste time with people such as these?

Girl, it sounds like you went through hell. The fact the deadlines kept coming even though you were incapacitated shows what kind of person your supervisor was.

I had a good PhD supervisor, however, my second post-doc supervisor was a nightmare. I think I may well have been on here with my own scare stories had I done my PhD at the second post-doc Uni. (and I was offered a studentship there too).

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Yup, person concerned who revived this must have been trawlling the old threads. They can be an interesting read sometimes when bored.

======= Date Modified 07 Oct 2011 20:31:47 =======
There are the 'new route' PhDs and also the Engineering Doctorates that are supposed to give more sturcture to a PhD. Perhaps these might have been better options for you.

That said, I'm cautious about a one size fits all cap-type regulatory body as although there is a similar basic structure to PhDs, they can be radically different depending upon subject and the speed with which tangible results are expected to appear. I started churning out new data from the off, however, due to the nature of some subjects it may take up to two years with some projects for original information to be generated.

Can you elaborate your thoughts a little further (on the regulatory body)? It's a fair enough idea but as I say, I'm a little cautious.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Nice to hear Keenbean, the stress has gone now so show what you can do with this new job!!!

If you want to feel really uncomfortable about PhDs, I was told on holiday in Jerusalem last year that three out of four of the Einsatzgruupen leaders (part of the German SS in the Second World War) held PhDs (the remaining one was a long served police officer).

One held two PhDs, an Otto Rasch who was known as Dr. Dr. :-(

If you've already one PhD, I don't actually see to point of putting yourself through that kind of stress a second time around (though you will know the score so to speak). A good few instead buid up their publication record then apply for a higher doctorate (i.e. D.Sc. etc.).


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

My primary read mine first then secondary. As the secondary virtually only did grammar checks after the primary had asked for extensive revisions, I dispensed with his services towards the end, once I'd learnt and incorporated his grammar style as part of my own writing style. The primary was that thorough I was able to get away with this.

The secondary was just happy to be left alone.

Go with whoever gives you the highest quality feedback, though out of politness keep the other(s) in the loop and hand drafts to them if they have a decent contribution to make.

======= Date Modified 04 Oct 2011 10:52:53 =======

Streuth, you're an adult and make your own decisions. Is he financing you per chance?

I always thought (if you wanted to follow a technical route) an M.Sc. would give you an advantage in your chosen field. I don;t see it being that different in the USA.

Do an MBA later if you want progress through management and even then with several years experience under your belt it may not even matter.

Probably we're both missing something, but it's not important.

What's important is you're through. Congratulations on passing Dr. PhD Bug!!! (up)


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Hmm, a difficult one. You're not supposed to be denied progression due to disability so in an ideal world, it should go in your declaration.

However, on reading through an application form a potential supervisor could turn down a candidate for "other reasons". It shouldn't happen, but we all know the personalities that exist in academia!!! A difficult one, especially if it comes to light later (though you could say it's just been diagnosed after you noticing problems).

My immediate predecessor sufferred from dyslexia and that led to some interesting juxtapositions in the time I knew him. It did not stop him and he gained his PhD, showing such disabilities needn't be a barrier to people achieving their dreams or goals. If you have a decent supervisor who'll proof your work (and the help of spelling / grammar checker in Word or whatever else you use), that will ensure your dyslexia won't be a problem.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

No not quite!!! :-)

I had sets of scribbled notes and other data as to what I was going to put down.   I would draft a chapter or broken down chunk, give to supervisor, draft up the next, supervisor would return first as I handed draft of second chunk, I'd correct first chunk, supervisor would hand back second chunk, I'd correct as I handed over my third chunk, supervisor would go through my third chunk as I drafted my fourth chunk, etc. and so on.   Supervisor's approach basically influenced this.

I had a situation where early parts of the thesis (up to results - normally two to three drafts per section or chunk) were in near-final form before the discussion was even started.   A similar pattern was followed through the discussion (with about five cycles of drafts for each segment) as final structure and establishment of original contribution took form.   This was slowed by the supervisor changing his mind a few times and him disagreeing with some of the technical content (I finally found a paper that proved my point and I addressed that in a later paper) as is per normal.

To follow the earlier pattern, there was a complete discussion before conclusions and further work took from my scribbling and the final content of the discussion.

By the time a complete draft took form, it was a near finished product.   My supervisor then grabbed the Introduction to the Current Work and reworded it to ensure objectives were clear. It's clear he had as clear a mental map as I of where exactly the thesis was and what needed to be done.

The bloke was extremely thorough and there was no way he would let a piece of work through unless he was happy that no more than minor corrections would result.

It was probably not a textbook approach, however, this do it in chunks turned out in the end to suit me. The thesis did end up with a conventional structure though.

I believe it ended up the same with my direct predecessor, with a very strong influence due to the preferred approach of the supervisor.

I've since seen another of my colleagues thesis (different primary supervisor) and he got away with a cobbling together of different self-contained modules / reports, an approach I was forwarned was not suitable for a PhD thesis. Another lad who followed his modualr approach didn't get away with it and got hammered by major corrections.

I returned from the outside world to do my PhD so maybe my perspective is a little different.

A good number of PhD students may well be entering PhD directly from degree (or Masters).  Whilst a little bit of background reading might not do any harm, the PhD period is going to be stressful no matter what preparation you do.  There's always going to be something to catch you out.

You cannot prepare for or approach a PhD in the same way as a degree and whilst you may be enthusiastic at this stage, I personally found that a new script had to be written as to approach for methodology and background research, and my writing style had to change (i.e. become more academic) to cope with the extra expectations of a PhD, the related journals and any presentations I did.  I had to be more analytical.

As the script for many is going to be rewritten once you start anyway, wouldn't it have been better if you took a decent break before starting your PhD so you'll be fresh when you begin proper.  I needed a good holiday between finishing my job and stating the PhD. 

If you do wish to do any preparatory work, wouldn't it be better to read one of the guides on 'How to get a PhD' so you know what to expect once you start proper.

This is just my take and again what is right for one may not be for another.

======= Date Modified 03 Oct 2011 10:47:29 =======
Congratulations on completing the corrections and thanks for sharing your thoughts with everyone else.  The battle plan you detail is that I roughly followed myself in retrospect.

Point one is spot on, simply because people get sick of hearing you on about the seemingly 'one thing' in your life.  People did move on and when I asked one friend about his decision to move away, a little bit of the reason was I was seemingly 'not there' anymore.  He wanted a new life and new friends because for varying reasons, I and another mate weren't there for him.  He perceived we were not there when we needed him.

As regards write, write and write again to produce that first draft, this is the one point where I'll slightly differ from you.  Different approaches suit different people and I initially followed your plan in this respect.  However, I found it suited me better to have a set of milestones with each milestone being a section of the thesis first in draft then in final form. 

This was partially to do with my supervisors wanting the thesis delivered to them in bite sized chunks and partially me wanting to deal with and as far as possible finalise each section before moving to the next (Abstract, Introduction, Literature Review - effectively spilt in two - basic background theory and directly relevant literature, Introduction to Current Work, Methodology, Results, Discussion - the hardest bit for me and spilt into five bite size chunks, Summary / Conclusions, Further Work).  If I did have to redo any previous work, then changes were minimal and I could concentrate on one thing at a time rather than dot between different sections or go back over old ground (bar read through at the end for typos or minor errors).

I guess in this respect, it's horses for courses and what suits the individual and their circumstances.

As regards peer review (official - journal - and unofficial - reviewing other people's work) and contribution to departmental life (i.e. helping out others), that I ended up doing in a big way. 

Shortly after I submitted hard bound copies, a Thai lad was told he had three days to sort out his thesis and submit, or be failed.  This normally only happened when the supervisors got to the end of their tether with someone.

I said I'd look through and wished I hadn't (well not literally as he was a canny lad - at least so I thought).  The discussion part of the thesis appeared to be nothing more than a collection of random words rather than a coherent passage.  I roped my mum in and using her grammar skills, the two of us in the next two reworked his discussion into what we considered a workable passage.  We gave it back to him and he accused me of 'changing the meaning' of his document.  I replied "What meaning, it was incomprehensible before we looked at it?"  He still submitted it though.

The outcome?  Our work on his discussion got him through with minor corrections.  In the years since?  He's the one with a successful career working in his field for the Thai Government.  I've returned to the real world and am basically back where I was pre-PhD (long story I've discussed elsewhere on here).

I was never thanked for my and my mums efforts.  I don't mind helping and doing my bit but I think sometimes things can end up very one sided when one takes and does not give back. Contribution is a two way process and those that just 'take' can soon find themselves frozen out.

I have this vision of the students lumbering towards you 'Walking Dead' style. :-)

Rhea,

We've all felt like that at some stage, that we're on the brink so to speak. That it from someone who completed the process quite a while ago now, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

If you're feeling that down, perhaps you need to take a time out. Perhaps a few days, perhaps go on holiday. If you're feeling really bad, it may be worth arranging some time on sick leave.

The thesis can't be the be all and end all. If you make it that, then yes, you do go stir crazy. Take a break for your own sake now.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)