I have to say we're speaking about different things, unfortunately. You are speaking of indulging industry aspirations, of a PhD having to meet corporate needs, of research having to satisfy quasi-governmental criteria. You concede that, "Yes of course there is important value in universities as the stock of human knowledge, beyond the immediate requirements of wider society". But you place little to no value in this and seek to offer industry/corporate/tax-dollar solutions to problems within academia itself. I prefer to highly value the authenticity and expert capability of offering top-level lectures and knowledge to students for the sake of knowledge, and thus we will always differ on this matter. My answer to the original question remains, "No". What was your answer by the way?

But on that note sleep well and speak tomorrow!

Hi CS was just about to hit the hay
No that's fine I appreciate other points of view and take on borad what you say; it just seems that, in particular, the points being made by myself and Badhaircut were not being enagaged with. Such is life on a forum!

I'll pick out my top 5 tomorrow, am sure Badhaircut will get there before me though Aquick one is skills. Huge world of a difference between the expertise and 'top-level' academic ability demonstrated through the praxis of research and the 'transferable (aghast) skills' that put me to sleep within 10 minutes of the first 'class'.

"That doesn't mean they have failed in any way whether they enter business or the public sector afterwards as a career".

To clarify (again): I have never said this, nor do I think anyone else has, and this is not part of my argument.

I suppose accuracy is a skill: I haven’t said I dislike money, just that it is not that important to me. And I’m not anxious, far from it. But then, if one doesn’t engage in the arguments being built, the one-word brush-offs are easier to dispense, are they not?

The other thing which occasioned a smile from my chevvy chase was Commonsense’s fortitude concerning this ghastly coined phrase ‘PhD skills’. When I read that I knew instantly how far the value of a PhD had truly fallen (excuse the hyperbole). PhD skills? Eh? Oh my god, is the PhD not sufficient anymore? As I’ve tried to outline a number of different ways, ‘transferable skills’ are just the latest gimmick from within the walls of academe to gloss over the paucity of the award they are almost duty bound to dish out. I appreciate positive suggestions, but not ones that merely serve to dislocate the thrust of what is being argued. Around 80% of people on here have said they wouldn’t do it again, does that not reveal something and worry people in equal measure? ...

It does amuse me that those of us who wish to challenge some of the less edifying aspects of what we see before us are denounced as ‘moaning’, ‘complaining’, unprepared’, or, the really articulate one, ‘not living in the real world’, or similar. So instead of engaging with the points being made, put-downs and brush-offs are enlisted, which raises a dry smile, because that kind of attitude is precisely what is being called into question...

I’m still 50/50 but in my three years academia has done virtually nil to ATTRACT ME into its employ; they have offered little incentive, little direction, and little moral fibre as to what academia is about – my own view is that I don’t want to be caught up in that kind of environment, hence a possible move away form it. As for new PhDers, I do not envy them one bit, and wouldn’t recommend one unless they are chasing down an industry position that has the accumulation of cash as a firm priority.

Please do not say, ‘go somewhere else’, ‘go and work for a sector that needs you’ because that was not the reason why I wanted to do the PhD and MISSES THE POINT – my criticism of the current academic structure and culture is NOT indicative of a negative PERSONAL attitude. I don’t care about money, so please don’t make me adhere to a system that adheres to the view that I must abandon my research and teaching POTENTIAL to chase down opportunities I’m not interested in.

Please be aware of what is being said: the potential for PhD researchers to be actively encouraged and helped to produce ground-breaking / exciting / helpful (pick your own) research and findings for their society has been sharply curtailed by an institutional infrastructure that barely cares about the origins of its own award. This is a comment and a criticism of the structure that I gladly got involved with – it has left me deeply unimpressed with the direction of academia as a whole, HENCE being 50 / 50 as to whether to pursue my love of writing and research in academia.

Now – it is not difficult to discern that what used to be a badge of excellence expressed through the award of a doctoral degree (in the UK since 1917) has been consumed by a number of unintended social processes that have led to the commercialisation of universities and their award structure. What USED TO BE a symbol of research/academic excellence AND a contribution to the level of knowledge in a society has been largely replaced by a “spin the pound” attitude : do your PhD but you must publish something (i.e. any old carp); do your PhD but you must teach a lot of hours and you must teach a lot otherwise you won’t be considered for a job; do your PhD (and so on)...

This is an excellent thread. However, it still surprises me that people join in without much of an idea of what I, for example, am on about. To clarify ( @ commonsense ) : I WAS FULLY AWARE, at the age of 28-31, what I was getting involved in and what the future prospects were. Please understand this. I am writing up (in sociology) - and I am 50 /50 as to whether I wish to commit myself to the academic sphere or do other things. I am in no rush, I have enjoyed my research (in an unusual area) immensely, and in life generally I am very happy and content. Please accept this for starters!

@ badhaircut: nail on head, imo. Need I say more?
Jay2007's professor comment backs that up. 5% ? pmsl (incredulous).
@ hatethelab: Quite. I suppose academia is now (has been for a while) a money-spinner for the lucky x percentile, something o.stoll applauds (no judgement intended.)
@ phder: The 'buy the Dr title for £50' comment made me laugh, class!!
Given the consensus from contributions to this thread, however, £50 would appear to be a touch pricey; maybe £4.95 would be more appropriate

* Apologies for double post.

Sleep tight o.stoll imo

Nay probs. I've put my fishing rod away,
caught a whopper tonight