Its nice to read that other folk are having similar experiences. If I could choose my supervisors again, I would have dumped them in a heart beat and gone to another University. Unfortuntely, like many other PhD students, I had put a whole lot of time, money and resources into my project to turn away, and lived in the very small hope that things might change. They never did. So thinking about what you have said there are a number of things I have thought that could be done. I don't know how realistic they are but hey-ho I'm just putting it out there.

(1) Internally: Do you have a post-grad society or general students union? Ask them to gather information on students experiences. This could be independently of any 'post-viva' questionnaire that you might have to fill out that your University collects. It would be anonymous of course but linked to a school/department. Universities do monitor feedback, but rarely act. I know this because I was a student rep for a long time, so know how the University works from the inside. A supervisor might receive anonymous comments, but because students tend to be careful about what they write, because at some point they will need a reference. Get the union/society to analyse their own collected data and the Universities. Does it match? They need to bring this to the student body and then the academic council for review and demand that more things are done about the results (I am assuming a large number of unsatisfied students). In the end we are paying fees (or someone is) and therefore have a right to a voice. This is the difficult part as an individual, as a larger body it is much easier. Those students in the Union/society will also be more empathic to the cause.....

(2) External: If the above doesn't work there are other options such as going to the local newspaper, getting an article published in Nature magazine (or equivalent) (there are lots of student blogs on the Nature website) initiating this as a general discussion e.g. Are we getting what we pay for? A good old fashioned threat to tarnish the reputation of a University always gets the Vice-Chancellor a bit nervous.

I like the idea of being able to look up a professor and rate them. It sounds good in principle but I am not sure about the legalities of it. However, I would not like any other student to go through what I have so I think you are onto something. These are just off the top of my head. I would like to believe there is a way to change what seems to be a long draconian way of bringing new academics into the world. Perhaps the best way is for us all is to learn from our negative experiences and vow to never repeat them. Our new breed of academics could them change the system from within. But that would be a long way down the road. Are there any organisations we as a collective could approach? HEFCE perhaps? An overall student/scholarship body. There must be someone interested?

======= Date Modified 06 Aug 2011 11:14:31 =======
Hi Little Penguin,

It's a shame you didn't feel you could leave your supervisor. I left mine for all the reasons you say you couldn't leave yours after a year of P/T study - I was putting too much time, money and effort into the PhD to have it badly supervised... where you funded, that would make leaving much more difficult?

Agan, I think any open blogging or website initiaive is way too easily open to abuse. There are already high incidences of shool pupils bullying teachers this way and ruining their careers, so unless that's you want for yourself in the future, I wouldn't go down that path.

There already are internal annonymous feedback services in departments. And they are acted upon by responsible and conscientious members of staff, but they're usually doing all right anyway.

I would urge anyone in this situation to find a better supervisor, withdraw funding from the department in question and tell the head of department why you've done it (giving plenty of detail about your sups failings) wherever possible. Not much looks worse than an academic with a record of PhD students bailing out because of rubbish supervision.

It is possible to find a good supervisor and there are clues, such as what is their attitude to their old students and how well have their graduates done? This is an area in which self funded students can really make a difference.

Hi Eska, Yes I am funded so hard to change Universities, plus am also overseas funded, so I would have to have a really good reason, and that would mean my word against a successful University professor that pulls in lots of money (but is a crap supervisor). It would be a take it or leave it situation. Depending on what country you work, I don't think its much different to some office situations, having a crappy boss, who is a poor manager and a bit of an ass. Sometimes it just comes down to personalities and I think Eska you are pretty brave for doing what you did. I still think there must be a solution to Damned's problem though, come on we are a smart bunch of brains in one place after all?!?!?!

======= Date Modified 12 Aug 2011 10:09:47 =======
============= Edited by a Moderator =============
*edited by moderators- inappropriate content*

I think the idea of a thread with feedback about supervisors is good. I have been so frustrated throughout my PhD, from the beginning I thought about leaving, but just couldn't make up my mind. I am funded by the university and I think this complicates things a little. I thought I would have problems getting another PhD, and then it just felt like I've been through too much to have wasted all those tears and blood - the cost of sunken ships. I have 9 months left and still the thing I would really like to do is leave, but I'm not going to so close to the end. I feel trapped, I am so angry and so bitter that I'm starting to have health problems. I think university websites should have a 'review' section or something, like books on Amazon. And yet, when I try to warn new PhD students, they don't seem to take it seriously.

======= Date Modified 29 Oct 2011 19:33:26 =======
Hi Boatgirl,

I am really sorry that you are going through such a difficult time. I don't feel the best equipped person to give advice to anyone, but as I am not anymore in my 20s (thus I have some experience of life), and I completed my PhD in spite of poor supervision, I can say something about my own personal experience.

Unfortunately there are a few threads on this forum about poor supervision/ bad relationships with supervisors, and the frustration that comes with that. This means that this is much more common than we think. Nonetheless, students tend not to talk with other colleagues/ staff in their departments, because complaints are often dismissed lightly.

I have been in the university environment in different capacities (tutor/ clerk and student), so I have some knowledge of how things are handled, and there is very little in place to support students or to check how supervisors do their jobs (albeit things are slowly changing). Review forms in my uni were made in such way that my supervisor could access my review of his supervisory work, but I couldn't read what he wrote about my progress, which I feel was unfair to say the least.

As I probably said elsewhere in the forum, if you complain you are perceived as a trouble maker, and this reinforces the feeling that supervisors can get away with anything. To make a long story short, I fought in the only way I knew I could get to the end: by dealing with my supervisor as least as possible, keeping my projects to myself and keeping supervisory meetings to the bare minimum. I also kept records of them and any e-mail correspondence as reference.

The PhD itself was a wonderful project and I really enjoyed my research time. I am an independent person and luckily I managed to keep on track without his support, but there have been some very hard moments, where i wondered why I was putting myself through that emotional roller-coaster. I think that I reached completion only thanks to my determination.

Retrospectively, I think that I made the right choice, but only because it was for a few years. Certainly there is a system that needs to be changed, and I can see that rules are getting stricter for both students and supervisors now -possibly because many people leave or fail. But so far I have never seen a bad supervisor being sacked. Sadly, on the contrary, I saw students who had to resign because the department was totally unsupportive.

Other people may have more positive stories to counter-balance my not-so-positive experience. I think that the important thing for you now is to focus on your completion and find ways to cope with what you are going through (e.g. counselling). If you have a 2nd supervisor or anyone else you can rely upon, you can see if they can help you to move forward with your research.

There is not an easy way forward, but you can find your own way to reach completion. If you are in the humanities it will be easier than it would be if you were in a lab working with a restricted group of people.

Anyway, I wish you all the best for your project, and hope that things will improve soon for you.

C.

======= Date Modified 04 Nov 2011 03:20:20 =======
Hi all I actually joined this forum because of this thread. I was thinking the same thing the other day when I was having yet another demoralising experience all thanks to my supervisor. I am approaching the end of my 4th year and in the process of writing my thesis however I am extremely worried about what reviewers will actually think. The one paper I could come up with from my work has now been rejected 3 times and my supervisor's comments? "Bad luck".

I now need to add that he has not read my paper once nor has he given me any direction during the course of my PhD. When I started he told me I will be working on biopolymers and told me to go for it. When I would approach him with a problem he would shrug his shoulders and tell me that another student of his has already published before me. I owe all the results I have (crappy as they may be) to my own work and no-one else's and for that I guess I am lucky, however I truly hope I do not fail my PhD based on the fact that I somehow tried to 'wing it". I had many other PhD offers before I took this one and I regret every day joining this group. I have thought recently of starting a website aimed purely at rating PhD supervisors (country and subject specific). It would be a place where students can rate their supervision (or in my case lack thereof) and act as a reference guide to new students and warn them off people like my supervisor. I know universities would not be highly appreciative of such a thing being available however it's about time supervisors are made accountable and scrutinised.

I also joined this forum because of this thread as I am also having a very difficult time of it due to my supervisor. Basically the PhD I applied for was initially supposed to be in another country and it was then moved back to the UK inconveniently. It became clear within the first month that my supervisor was difficult but then it became clear of the extent of the situation when colleagues of mine described working for him as being 'battered wives that keep going back for more'. He is very much a bully and unpredictable in his nature breaking down everyone that works for him to tears. I have been under his supervision now for over a year in 2 different countries and due to personal stresses of my own I just don't think I can cope anymore. And so my question is this - if I start to apply for other PhDs (which is what I really want to do) in similar areas but different locations, can he find out? Can the other people I apply to contact him because if you google my name my uni profile comes up? I need to get out but I am afraid he will ruin me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

"Basically speaking I view a PhD like an apprenticeship or traineeship w. You get horrible pay but you have someone is responsible for teaching you the trade, with the idea that you come out of it all with the skills to become an employable part of the workforce. Would you agree with this?"


In one word, NO.

Your supervisor is NOT responsible for teaching you the trade. YOU are. It is your contribution and therefore you teach yourself your own trade. Your supervisor is there to ensure you learn how to do this independently and that includes being independent from them! They are responsible for showing you how to swim in the murky waters of academia and that is quite a different thing.

I disagree. Part of the 'trade' of being a scientist is how to navigate academia as part of a career - so you are already off to a bad start. If we were going to be completely independent of our supervisor then there would also be no need to find a supervisor that was in the same area as our research. But just look through these forums to find how hard it is to progress with a supervisor with a background from a different field. And yes if a supervisor is an expert with a particular rare and complicated technique then yes it is their responsibility to teach it to you, not just "well there's that 3 million dollar piece of equipment, now go play" and we all know how fiddly new equipment is and how useless the manuals can be.

But it's not just supervision that can be bad. Even with the simple fact we are deemed a 'student' means we get less industrial rights. For example, employees and official volunteers (at least here) are automatically covered by workers compensation in the case of an accident at 'work' or during travel on the way to work. PhD students, not so, even though we still have an identifiable 'boss' with identifiable responsibilities in the scientific workplace.