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I must confess I've found this whole thread a little confusing. Ok, first up I'm one of the older ones, I'm 39 now, but several of the other research students in my dept are in their 20s, some of my closest friends from my ug and ma years are only now 22 or 23 - age doesn't actually matter in the slightest! Similarly my supervisor must be around 50+ - not sure really, and yes, I do feel like I'm getting old - heck I'm 40 later this year, you are 23!!!! (Incidentally I was married and had had my first child by your age, and remember freaking out when hitting 25 convinced that my best years were behind me - what utter tripe that was!) You have the world at your feet - be yourself, be your age, its lovely - trust me, most of the older students are quite likely jealous of your youth and your energy! Either that or they just don't even notice it - I can sit and chat to my friends and there is no difference, age is a state of mind, not a number, and that (apart from the effects of ageing on the body) is a fact imo!

Now, this business about celebrity - I'm very confused by this. I can't quite understand what you are getting at - and please don't take that personally, I just don't see why you'd want to be 'out there'. I'm first year Phd too and quite frankly I have NOTHING to say that the world would be interested in - I have enough trouble creating excitement in my dept with others in my field lol. A Phd and research is an intensely personal thing - the rest comes later - possibly. In my field it would be to achieve the 'fame' of Simon Schama or David Starkey - but, to be honest, I'd prefer the respect of my academic peers than the fame of the masses where I'd have to dumb down my work, speak in words of one syllable to make it intelligible etc. Maybe I'm doing myself and the rest of us down here, and if this comes over the wrong way then I am truly sorry and I hope you get what I mean - but why should the world want to listen to us at this stage any more than they would wish to listen to a check out operator? We work in such tight and focused worlds that others in our dept have no clue what we're talking about. Our whole purpose is to produce something original and highly academic, not to be popular to the masses. As I say, maybe that will come later when we've served our apprenticeship. But in the same way that there are very very few 'stars' that make it and are listened to who have a 'voice', but tens of thousands of 'little people' who work in the background but without whom the entertainment industry would never survive - in academia there are a handful of household names - David Starkey, Hawking, ermm...... lol.

I'm sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick here too

I have also had my research in the media although in my case it was newspapers not tv.  I was very very fortunate that the research was described fairly well. I am also aware that this is not the case for the majority of researchers.  In fact, many researchers shy away from the media because the media twist/misinterpret research. In my area (psychology) there is also a lot of distain for people who appear on the tv (for example, as a big brother psychologist) so the academic community does not encourage others to promote their work.  So, a lot of the time it can be our fault that we're not communicating our research as well as we should do. Ben Goldacre writes really really well about this (and, as an added bonus, is very very yummy.  If anyone has his number, please do let me know!) and is well worth a read (and an ogle).

I'm 24, I would like to think that my PhD is just the very start of my career.

Take care

A

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Eueu,

To me, your post just comes across as bizarre. Sorry but it does.

You are not seeing your youth “flee in front of your eyes” you are using your youth to get a PhD – something which will set you up for a fulfilling and productive career. So many people you age work in factories, shops or are unemployed. How do you think they feel about their youth passing them by? You are in a very privileged situation. You should appreciate that, not worry about not having made a 'famous discovery' aged 23 when practically no one else has either.

“It saddens me that PhD students do not get enough media attention on their projects”

Sorry but no one owes you attention. Got to work at producing work that is brilliant enough to achieve attention like, as BHC says, Ben Goldacre, Petra Boynton, Alain De Botton, Tim Harford or Tanya Byron, plus David Starkey etc have done this. Most PhD students don’t get media attention because they are STUDENTS. They may go on to produce brilliant attention-gaining work later in their career but just now they are too busy learning the skills they need to achieve later success. The media attention will have to wait for later. (Probably the same reason why there is little attention for trainee architects, artists, journalists, lawyers, politicians, and actors but quite a lot of attention for people at the top of these careers). The act of being a PhD student is not in itself enough to gain media attention.

I’m pretty sure that each discipline has its Associations and groups who celebrate the young people achieving things in their discipline, and as far as media attention goes you will have to be happy with that. Do you really thing mainstream media are going to deveote time to PhD students projects? Most peoples (non acadmic) mates aren’t that bothered about their work – why would the general public be? You seem to conflate successful academic careers and being a film star/celebrity which, in this post at least, which comes across as odd.

You say you cannot believe the negative attention this post is receiving in a Postgraduate forum which is meant for support. But support does not mean mindlessly accepting what people post. People responding were never going to blindly agree with you. Your claim of more media attention needing to be focused on PhD projects is a little strange and was always going to be contested and criticised on this forum.

Who the flippin' heck would want to be a celebrity anyway? What a vacuous and pointless existence that is. What really brought that home for me was seeing the break up of Jordan and Andre (2009) discussed on the national 10 o'clock news! What does that say about society at large, at the risk of starting to sound cliched? Anyway, I digress.
If you want celebrity, Eueu, and God knows why, then I think doing a PhD is completely the wrong way to go about it. As previously mentioned, our work is narrow, esoteric, often very self-centred and, largely, not for public consumption. You're very perceptive when you say no-one cares about your work. They don't. But why should they? It's your work and relatively few people will be able to understand it.
A few 'famous' names have been mentioned and I suppose you could class that as a kind of celebrity status, if that's what you want. You'd better do something, as someone mentioned, something that's pretty life changing for people though. As for feeling old at 23 - wtf??? I'm not that much older but I certainly don't feel old. A bit of a boring fart and socially isolated because of my work, but I don't feel old.

Oh, with respect to A116 saying the Ben Goldacre is fit. Looks to me like a self-satisfied and smug fart from his pics on Google Images. I'd choose your men more wisely if I were you. Have you considered Sylvester Stallone?

walminskipeas wrote:
"What really brought that home for me was seeing the break up of Jordan and Andre (2009) discussed on the national 10 o'clock news!"

Nicely cited. LOL!

A famous discovery before you're 23? If it helps, Albert Einstein was 26 before he got his PhD and his thesis was reputed to be 19 pages long. But he failed the entrance exams to get into his desired school so even a genius can fluff things.
Just enjoy your PhD for what it is. (up)

celebrities are of interest to people because they lead 'glamorous' lives (or at least it looks that way) and provide a bit of escapism. i, on the other hand, lead a really boring, dull life, most of it spent staring at a computer screen or repeating endless seemingly pointless experiments in the lab. who he heck would want to watch/read about that?! i will gain recognition in my field through hard work, getting things published, and that will be enough for me. I am presenting my first poster at a conference next week, and the thought that someone might actually want to read what I have to say is pretty exciting, as it's never happened before! so i guess in some ways I understand the 'recognition' you seem to crave. however, i would never expect anyone outside of my field to understand or care about what I do, mostly beause it's so specialised and would take a good hour to explain in layman's terms. and to be honest, that is kind of what i like about my work too. i love that when i go home and my bf asks how my day was, he doesn't really care what i actually did, and his eyes glaze over if i try and explain! yes, i am never going to cure cancer/cure AIDS/bring world peace, but i am making a small (ok, tiny!) but important contribution to the advancement of science, and that will do for me!

as for being supportive, i think everyone is simply saying that they don't feel the way that you do, and that is not being unsupportive, that is being honest. we could all blindly agree with you and say how terrible, you're ancient at 23, your life is over... would that make you feel better? we are mostly pointing out that there is no need to feel as you do and i think that is being pretty supportive actually!

ps. i'm a 26 year old first year phd student - i must be nearly ready for the scrapheap!

Eugh!!!! Eugh eugh eugh eugh eugh! Sorry to digress but how can you compare Dr Goldacre to Mr Stallone. I will admit, I tend to go for more "interesting" looking men (apart from the bf. He, of course, is an adonis...just in case he's reading!). His twitter is great, links to some very disturbing news stories about research and is really very funny. And I stand by my original point - he's pretty!

Eueu, as far as I can tell you are dealing with a whole load of different insecurities, some of which I find a bit odd, but that's not really the point if it's bothering you and you're hoping for support here. What I can say though is that I was 21 when I started my PhD and that's never bothered me in the slightest. Age has nothing to do with numbers, nor does the number correlate necessarily with experience or ability. I find it very hard to understand people who believe that you can only relate to other people your own age, and surround themselves with their age group. It's also quite unusual in more intellectual/intelligent circles, although more normal at school and among undergraduates I think. Since I was about 16 my friends have been both much older and much younger than me, and as an undergraduate I had friends among the staff, postgrads and undergrads and no one behaved any differently towards me because of my age. As a PhD student I think it unlikely that anyone knows how old I am - why would it matter? If you're having trouble joining in the camaraderie between older postgrads and profs then I think it must have more to do with your insecurities/attitude than it does with your age. Oddly though, your 'feeling old' seems to be the opposite of this, but has the same answer: you're only as old or young as you tell yourself you are.

Hmmm, this thread is very interesting, but as stressed said, also rather confusing! Eueu, your original post seemed to have a lot of overlapping but separate issues, and I hope am not taking you out of context (but let me know if I am).

Firstly - with regard to your age. One key issue with a PhD (and I'm a 27 yr old third year) is that you will, by the nature of the work, spend a significant part of the next few years, which many consider to be the 'prime of life' sat in a library or a lab on your own. My mum remarried last year and her new husband who I think is fantastic has three daughters who are all slightly younger than me and who are all in long-term relationships. As a good catholic mother, my mum constantly asks when I am going to get a nice boyfriend (frankly I don't have time!). Society values other things over a PhD you are correct, but that is because most people either do not know what a PhD is, or see is as an extravagance, a luxury that does not 'contribute' to society - although we like to think they do, of course!!!;-)

This is linked to the second part regarding celebrity. People are used to 'instant' answers and results nowadays - the whole MTV generation thing - and the general public like fast simple 'dumbed down' answers. That is not a criticism, it is a reflection on the fact that people go to work, often in mundane jobs - if they have a job - and when they get home they do not want to be 'taught'. In an earlier post you said that the general public could 'learn a lot' from PhD students; but they don't want to learn! They have other things to do, that is why they like celebrity endorsements, they are more accessible and easier to understand. Some people will of course want to "self-improve" but many don't ("You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think").

What I think is most worrying about your post is that you seem to want 'popular' validation. The fact is that in academia, impressing the peers in your field who know about your subject is much more worthy than having generalised popular acceptance.

Eueu, what is it that you are researching that you feel is so worthy of all this media attention? Not being mean or cruel, but you are a first year PhD student - I cant really imagine what you could have to say that would be so important. This is the time for learning and improving your skills. How many of your professors are household names? Does that make their work any less valid or important? Academics do not generally seek validation in public circles, but in academic circles through the process of peer review. Sometimes research does cross over into mainstream media, but it has almost certainly already been published in the academic world first.

Well, my job (which is connected to my first masters and has nothing to do with my reserach) involves a lot of P.R. In trying to do so, I have to explain what I do to people who don't know a thing about it. This has given me a lot of recognition, as many believe that I am a pioneer in this field. BUT I don't like the fact that I have to break my job into very very small pieces so that everyone understands it. It may have brought me "fame" and "recognition" and "media coverage", but it is not what I want.
One could say that oversimplifying was my choice. Well, it wasn't. It was a matter of understanding in order to achieve goals, and understanding could come only through this procedure, because as someone wisely said, people don't want to learn! They just want to believe that they have the necessary knowledge. That is why celebrities who "appear" to be brainless are so successful!
As far as the age is concerned... I am 31 and I don't feel old at all!!! I think it's how old your mind is, and mine is till very young!!!!

Well, my job (which is connected to my first masters and has nothing to do with my reserach) involves a lot of P.R. In trying to do so, I have to explain what I do to people who don't know a thing about it. This has given me a lot of recognition, as many believe that I am a pioneer in this field. BUT I don't like the fact that I have to break my job into very very small pieces so that everyone understands it. It may have brought me "fame" and "recognition" and "media coverage", but it is not what I want.
One could say that oversimplifying was my choice. Well, it wasn't. It was a matter of understanding in order to achieve goals, and understanding could come only through this procedure, because as someone wisely said, people don't want to learn! They just want to believe that they have the necessary knowledge. That is why celebrities who "appear" to be brainless are so successful!
As far as the age is concerned... I am 31 and I don't feel old at all!!! I think it's how old your mind is, and mine is till very young!!!!

This is a very interesting post but I have to agree with many of the other posters on this issue. I understand the desire and need you may have for recognition of your work. Afterall PhD students in general do put their heart and soul into projects which can have important benefits to society. But you seem to feel that you somehow deserve celebrity status because of your PhD work. What is it about your work that is so important that you feel everybody needs to hear? From what I understand very few people can claim to do research at PhD level that is worthy of anything other than a pat on the back from their supervisor,examiner and maybe the odd old fart they meet at a conference . Individual PhD project are not likely to make the 9pm news and why should they?

Do you think society owes you a debt of gratitude? If you are funded by a research council then the tax payer is already paying your way.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that because you are an academic you deserve some kind of special recognition. What about doctors who may save lives on daily basis or cops who keep the streets safe? Do they deserve media attention? Not necessarily but they will likely get the recognition they deserve from the people that matter the most: their peers

I have friends doing PhD s in a broad range of academic disciplines and even though the outcome of some of these projects may have important benefits to society the specific details of their research will be of little interest or consequence to anyone but a handful of academics working in the same area. Achieving the kind of recognition that you seek would more than likely require that your research is watered down to a level were it is likely to become misrepresented or oversimplified in the media spotlight making you look like an ass in the process

celebrities are indeed famous because they are what many people in society aspire to be: rich good looking, big house and car, endless attention from adoring fans... this is indeed a sad reflection of what people in todays societies value but don't really see these people as real. They live in romanticized idealized worlds far removed from the rest of us and the bubble always bursts eventually.The few academics that do achieve celebrity status and recognition do so because they are remarkable people ( for the right or the wrong reasons ) and because they have something to tell people are interested to hear

this may sound harsh but if this is what you want then grow a set of balls and go for it. Write into local and national news papers, write a book and have it published. If you have something to say and people want to hear it then you will get some kind of recognition. if not, then publish your work at conferences and journals and become recognized by the people who are most qualified to judge and appreciate your work: your peers.

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Eueu:

(Apologies in advance for the length of this reply, for jumping in as a first-time poster, & for talking about myself a fair amount...)

I very much understand your feelings on these subjects, as I also struggle with these issues. I started my MA/PhD program at the age of 20, officially entering PhD at age 22. (It’s an American program, so somewhat longer than UK programs in my field – e.g. we have to complete separate PhD coursework & exams in addition to a final dissertation.) It was difficult at first to relate to others in my program because they were older than me and ... didn’t seem very passionate about their work. However, several new students were admitted in my 2nd year – they were a bit younger and very driven; they also shared my sarcastic sense of humor. Sometimes you just need to be patient & trust that you will meet the right people. Sometimes the people who end up heartening your work actually are in different departments. Interdisciplinary collaboration has produced some exciting results, e.g. MIT’s institute for integrative cancer research: http://web.mit.edu/ki/index.html

Also, I was able to meet other colleagues through my advisor (who is prominent in my field & very well connected). Perhaps your advisor can introduce you to other like-minded PhD students? At the very least, you can meet up at conferences or start an email correspondence with them. I do think that academic community is vital to encouraging one’s research –indeed, the earliest models of the university were founded on vibrant exchange of ideas – so it’s important for you to find some kind of supportive academic community.

Regarding feeling “old” – I’m struggling greatly with this right now, at the ripe age of 25 - even though I know it’s illogical & unhelpful to obsess over age. It may be useful to consider why you feel this way. Personally, I think that it can be difficult for people who were identified as “promising” or “gifted” to reach the pinnacle of schooling. I had looked forward to postgraduate education my entire life & I expected to fly through it like I had every other level of education. However, I found that there was so much I still didn’t know... so many weaknesses / personal demons to confront... it can be depressing to be so close to one’s goal & feel so distanced from it. The very nature of earning a PhD brews a mess of insecurities about one’s lack of knowledge... while it’s essential to cultivate humility, you cannot let your insecurities overshadow how far you have come & the potential you still have. Still – I know how it can feel to have all this energy inside of you, a great yearning for discovery. This is not something egotistical or otherwise bad! It’s evidence of an essential passion for research. You just need to find how to direct that energy into a useful pursuit (obsessing over your age or what you haven’t done yet – these are not good uses of that energy).

[see next post for continuation...]