I find it interesting that Kimwipes couldn't imagine coping on a salary that would put you comfortably into the higher earner category in the UK...If born rich maybe not but most of us manage just fine.

The thing about this article (and perhaps the culture?) that gets me though is that I never considered the PhD as a pathway into employment. I always thought of the PhD as a pathway into higher learning, but not to improve my employment prospects. I knew going in that if I wanted a good job that paid well, I'd be better to go into a trade that's in demand, or a skill set that's in demand.

I did the PhD because I wanted to learn.

The other thing is that I knew going in that if I were to stay in Academia, it would be highly competitive and I would not be able to just assume that getting PhD means I would get a job in Academia.

Academics are not in demand, especially in my field. And even less in demand are Academics who soley produce research. My department personally is not a fan of research-only academics and prefers to have teaching & research staff, so while I was a postgraduate I did a lot of sessional teaching, unit coordination and lecturing. Luckily because of this I was able to land a one-year T&R contract at my uni with a decent paygrade (for Australia).

I do agree that the universities are creating false advertising and creating a culture in which we can be said to believe that PhD/MA = Job in the same way that undergraduate degrees are marketed (all because of new business model).

However, I also think that students need to take some self-responsibility and inform themselves as opposed to just listening to everything thrown at them. Nothing is handed to us (unless we're white, male, rich, etc). A good student is one who is well-informed. There is plenty of information available to suggest to new potentials that a PhD/MA is not the automatic pathway to a employment in either Academia or Industry...

Agreed Awsoci

You have to differentiate between different phds awsoci. If you studied history or social sciences and continue with a phd, which is mostly based on literature research than this is definitely higher learning.
But in case of many subjects, a phd is to a huge extent practical work. They benefit from your work and they save or earn money with you. Go and look up what a cracy amount of money universities save because they let you teach instead of a professor or lecturer. They are creating false ads to get cheap, temporary research and teaching staff that they never planned to employ permanently. They are not doing this to get phds teaching experience. They know you won't get a position afterwards. This is critisezed in almost every other job sector but if it comes to science, the people seem to accept everything and always see the bright side.

In many cases (chemistry and biology for instance) a phd is mandatory to work outside a university, so if you want to work as a biologist you are usually almost forced to do a phd. And the thing is, that it was not always like this. There were times were you had 100% position when you worked 100%

I think you have a one-way view on this. Of course I can see everything positively. It is indeed a great experience and helps you to improve yourself. Morover, noone forces you to study something, noone forces you to do a phd, become a scientist or whatever and of course if I would have talked to the approximately 50 post docs I talked so far before starting a degree in biology, I would have known that universities talk shit, but who does that?

Yeah, I guess it comes down to whether you see the clouds or the silver-lining, Dunham.

I'm a silver lining kinda girl. I just did a PhD for the learning experience. No-one ever made me any promises.

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine I would have a PhD, so anything that comes after is a bonus. And if I only earn £20k a year for the rest of my life I will still be happy that I did my PhD.

I think this is a bit more complex ;) This is of course not simply about money and you but about how science works nowadays and how perverted that system can be. A fact, that not even most professors deny. I don't think that science has to be like this and in fact, it was not always like this. But I guess as long as people are willing to see the silver linings, nothing will change and it will probably get worse. Universities will definitely change nothing about cheap workers. Especially not if you get phd students from china for free :D

I think the point is that it's not just science that works like this. It's like this in every business. Science has just been slow to catch up. Nothing is going to change so the only option is to see the silver linings.

I've had a whole other career before starting my PhD, and as a professional I was only earning about 21k, so to be quite honest I will consider myself lucky if I manage to earn 33k post-PhD. I do take the point about universities using newly qualified academics for cheaper labour, but agree with TreeofLife that similar things have happened in many sectors. I'm more concerned with the bigger picture of poverty and inequality than my personal right to earn a high salary.

In which job do you work 100% with a 50% position as a temporary employee? Never heard of that. Most phd students do not even have minimum wage if you break it down to hourly wage.
33k is of course a nice salary but will you have the same 33k after your contract ended? This is also depending on your fellowship or whatever finances you. Guess not every post doc earns 33k.

In my opinion it is btw totally okay to love his job AND to get an appropriate salary. Just because I'm a scientist does not mean that I have to be ashamed about the fact that I rely on money and a job perspective like everybody else does. Nobody expects doctors to work for minimum wage and be just happy about the fact that they have a job they love and can actually help people.

This is only secondary about money but about a lack of perspective for all those people (which in return results in low salaries). There is a reason for all those articles and studies about PhD students fearing what comes after there PhD. That's not because of the bad perspective in academia (most students are not aiming for a academic position) but because of bad perspectives everywhere.

I really don't wanna play that sort of grumpy "PhD Grinch" but some things just have to change and if not even PhD students see a need for that I really wonder if it will some day

You've never heard of zero-hour contracts obviously.

I have read about it a week ago. There was an article about a scottish girl who studied music and now works at Mc Donalds with one of those contracts. Is it in every job like this in the UK? I thought this was the case for jobs were you don't need a degree at all. To avoid any misunderstanding, when I talked about the salaries of people without a PhD I talked about people who did their degree and actually work in that field. If you hold a master degree in engineering or computer science and you work for 21k a year you REALLY should thinking about leaving UK :)

I worked for 21k (and less than that in some jobs) with postgraduate qualifications. I've had a zero-hour contract which resulted in me getting 7 hours work some weeks, when that was my only job. I do understand what you are saying, and I guess I am more concerned about things like short-term, insecure contracts, zero-hour contracts and so on, in all fields, not just academia. I do think it is a bigger picture - I have seen management jobs advertised at minimum wage, for example. At the moment, if you get a proper contract and a salary you can live on, you are one of the lucky ones.

I have no problem with that. In fact I wish all postdocs get the same amount or more… :)

And whilst we are discussing the value of doing a PhD and whether postdoc salaries are compatible with minimum wages or exceeding them:

1- Research funds are disapperaing but university administration personnel and costs are expanding.
2- University presidents and deans salaries are skyrocketing to a CEO type levels (i.e. salaries for most of Canadian university presidents are in $400,000 to $600,000 range with a big fat multi million dollars compensation at the end of their term).
3- And while tenure track and research associate positions become rarer, the universities recruit more and more PhD students as in the name of science but intact they are just cheap labours.

If these signs do not tell you about a Ponzi scheme, I am not sure what else would do …

I do see a need for it, I'm just saying it's no different in any other industry. It all needs to change. People need to be paid appropriately for their work in all fields. If you have a 9-5 contract, you should be paid for a 9-5 contract. It just doesn't work like that any more. Like chickpea said, if you have a contract and a decent salary you should be grateful, because too many people don't.