Thank you DanB. You deserve a mousemat, too.

Thank you DanB and 404

404, you've read the whole of the Bible and Quran?

MistaG, what does this mean: "my personal opinion is that 404 is wrong: first of all, I dont think you read the entire bible and Quran"

I should add that I have *only* systematically read and studied probably more than half of the Bible (i.e. not all of it, yet). I think there are different levels of belief, some people go deeper than others, so I don't think reading the whole Bible is a prerequisite to belief.

The thing I find most distressing about religion is when people become anti some sector of society because the Bible/Koran, or whatever, has been interpreted by them to see certain people as sinful eg some conservative Chrisitians/Evangelicals and their attitude to homosexuals

404

I'm glad that you read the bible and you've come to a conclusion about it's message that is better than most who criticise it with reading it in it's entirety, but if you and many of the other forum users have read my previous postings I've mentioned that I've read many OTHER philosophy books and sources in the past in order to be a more rounded person.

In my search I've PESONALLY found the bible to more satisfying in answering my questions.

Also as I've said in my previous posings, I've obeserved and continue to observe in this forum that a lot of people are being very judgemental because I and many others have made a CHOICE about what we want to belief. I haven't criticised anyone, but have formed an opinion (hence this is a forum).

I request that others refrain from getting too personal about other people's beliefs,but share logical arguements as to why they belief as they do.

This will be my last posting on this subject

Hey MistaG !!

I'm not upset and I hope it didn't come over that way in my messages. I have many conversations like this at my Uni.

I know a lot of people are very uncomfortable with religion , because it has done in the past with all the hypocrisct and all, but I belief in living by example, as stated in the scriptures, as God is the only who can judge.

Many people think religious are weird , but I'm a pretty outgoing, funny individual with a logical twist in life, who doesn't take life too seriously, but someone who loves life!!!

I am surprised by how many people still believe in God. I thought that in a PhD forum there would be less superstition and acceptance. It seems indeed that there does not exist any correlation between educational level/IQ and religion!!! This is a bit disappointing coz it shows that although the global IQ rises throughout the decades,the different religions will always exist and make people fight for nothing.

Maybe religion is so strong because it has its roots to a young age, what u learn from family... what yr nation believes in... all these things that make u unable to see the whole... it is your identity and is related too close to the feeling of self. Beliefs are always stronger than facts anyway. I understand it is hard to accept something different when you have been brought up that way before you have the ability to reason and make decisions. I just hoped that education would make people open their eyes a little!

My boyfriend says that the Bible is a reasonable self-help book at best. I would rather argue that Bible is the biggest fairytale that humanity ever believed in. A means to an end. A reason and an excuse to fight. For money, for power, for land...

I know that my feelings may come across very strong to some of you but I feel that in this time of such religious hate, one shouldn't try to keep quiet in such debates in order not to harm someone's feelings anymore. Religion may one day destroy the planet in the name of the God.

but surely scamp, the Bible is just as valid a historical document as any other thing written at the time, so why should it be dismissed as a fairytale? For example, there's more documents pointing towards the existence of Jesus, than there is Julius Ceasar. But have you ever doubted Julius Caesar existed?!

And another thing, this whole idea about relating religions to war. Well I dont know about other religions, Jesus was a pacifist and promoted pacifism. So its not the religion that causes wars, its what people do with the religion. And if they werent fighting for so called 'religious' reasons, they'd just mask whatever they were fighting for in something else.

And finally ... yes scamp I am a little bit offended by your comments, particularly your surprised conclusion that there doesnt seem to be a correlation between intelligence and religious belief.

My first degree was in theology, and the arguments were just as systematic, robust, intelligent etc. as those in my phd subject area (healthcare sociology)

First, I do not understand why you are offended by me saying that there is no correlation (either positive or negative) between belief and intelligence. This statement simply shows that intelligent and less intelligent people are equally likely to believe in God.

Second, my comment about wars was only used to show that those who created religion had many and very good reasons to do so. Maybe if there were no religion, there would be less suicide bombers as well (and now don’t tell me that Islam is wrong and Christianity is right)!!! You also said that people and not the religion makes wars. But religion is created by humans!

Finally, believing that Jesus existed is one thing. Believing that He was a God (or the Son of the God) is another. That is an extraordinary claim to make and as such it requires extraordinary evidence. And the Bible is far from that (I cant reckon how many people reported things because they interpreted things incorrectly because of lack of knowledge, how many because of their desire for power and control, how many because they needed to believe in something). I do not agree with you at all that the Bible is a valid historical document. There have been so many versions of it... I really do not know who decided what would be included in each version and what not. History is never objective anyway.

But surely using such an influential man as Jesus, naming him “God” for profit was a brilliant idea! There are always so many people who (regardless of their intelligence) need something beyond them to give meaning and guidance to their lives. There are so many people who cannot accept that there is no ultimate meaning, that we ourselves have to find a meaning for our existence and that the only judge of our actions is our own self.

As is the case for every other irrational belief or fear, faith is a burden. However, I do believe in the power that faith gives to some people; the reasons are wrong but in the cases where the results are positive, religion is necessary.