I also enjoyed most of my PhD. My reasons why it was good.

1) I got to do fieldwork in three different countries and I think made friendships through those experiences that will last.
2) I learnt a lot about my strengths and weaknesses - much more than 5 years in the civil service taught me.
3) I never would have dreamed that not only could I stand up and give a lecture in front of several hundred people but that I could even begin to quite enjoy it!
4) I met lots of great academics who I respect greatly. I'm not a fan of consumerist society and while some academics do epitomise the rat race, it is reassuring that some still care about truth, justice and honourable behaviour in the way they behave and expect their students to behave.
5) I still can't get over the fact that public bodies have paid for me to spend 5 years (PhD & postdoc) reading and writing.

Like many on this board, I'm not optimistic that I'll get a lectureship but while my time in academia has brought me little materially, it's brought me an awful lot otherwise. I know much more about what I value in life and I think my choices even outside academia will be very different to those I made earlier in my career. I just really hope that someone can stop the grimness that Mandelson and Willetts seem determined to inflict on universities whoever wins the elections. I'd like the next generation to have the opportunity of education not just training.

Thank you for that post Bad Hairdcut. It's really insightful and well thought out. I can identify with everything you've said there. It might not work out for me in the end, but I've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. And most importantly, I'll have the PhD and have proven to myself that I can do it. Part of the reason that I started this thread was, as pretentious as it may sound, to identify reasons for working away at it, because it's a daily grind and a big struggle. So, I'm just trying to have a positive mental attitude and hope that other people can contribute. Sorry, if I came across a bit snotty, I'm just a bit defensive about my work sometimes :$

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Hiya all, I've been reading this thread without commenting for a while, but it's finally reached a point now where I can't help myself and have had to put finger tip[s] to key pad.



I do appreciate the dual headed ghost of Christmas future represented by BHC and WJGibson coming to warn us of our impending future doom; however, we got the message about that ages ago, and sometimes we need to be positive about what we are doing in order to get on with it. Or, as Wally says, are you trying to get us all to give up? Plus, I'm pressuming many people are like me and have friends and colleagues who are further along this process than most of us are, hence we already know that there are plenty of possible pitfalls to what we are doing. I ,for one, entered this whole process with my eyes reasonable wide open. For example, my closest friend from my undergraduate days finished his PhD at Oxford, with a very well resepcted supervisor, almost two years ago to the day, and he managed to publish an extremely well reviewed book while he was still a student: he has since had just a one year .5 contract, which ended in September, some freelance research work, and has been sustaining himself as a journalist (what he did before embarking on a PhD). My boss has had several nervous breakdowns, and I know several people with PhDs who are doing the same job as me and who are utterly frustrated about their professional and financial lot in life.



So, yes, you guessed it: WE KNOW ALL ABOUT IT THANKS (capitals for emphasis only). But guess what? Just like the crazy lemmings you keep telling us we are, we're going for it; call the men in white coats if you like, but that's just how it is. So please try not to disrupt our attempts to gee ourselves along. Just think, the sooner we finish, the sooner we'll be able to throw in the academic towel and you can go home for your tea. I find well managed denial and positive thinking have been excellent ways of getting through all kinds of life challenging situations; and it's worked great with the PhD so far too: I will not be giving it up, or giving up th blindly optimistic expectation of a fulfilling academic career. And for your information, I've worked in several other sectors and they all have terrible possible pitfalls too. For example, my boss at the film and tv costume place was a coke snorting bulmic who used to snort and then throw up in the ladies loo every morning, and bullying was standard practice; while there is nowhere more political and back biting than a film set. Bullying was absolutely rife at the slave driving recruitment company I worked fo too, and at the musem I worked for.




But you know what? People deal with it, and they very often do so by following the sage advice given by the very wise and wonderful Monty Python team, who once sang out with all their hearts 'always look on the bright side of life' even when the chips are down, and you're being crucified.



So! I am looking forward to being able to write and think for a living AMAZING; I can't wait for the day when I dedicate my book to my sister who died just as I started the academic career; I want to contribute to students lives, as my tutors contributed to mine; and I want to work with other people who think and write too. Now that's worth being crucified for, much better than sorting through thousands of pairs of sweaty tights for extras, or pretending actresses bums don't look big.

You sound exactly like I've been feeling for the past few days Sue! These PhD related troughs are so horrible, you just need something nice to happen to get you back on track. Look after yourself, hopefully everything else won't seem so grim when you feel healthier. (up)

I have a different perspective on this because I'm long-term ill with a progressive incurable neurological disease, and won't be able to work after the PhD, even part-time. I'll be glad to be just alive to be honest, albeit not very functional. So my goals and aspirations are somewhat different from most people going through the PhD process.

But I have recently started to think that: (1) maybe I will get through the PhD after all (up until recently I've been much less opptimistic); and (2) there are some other things I'd like to do when I'm not doing the PhD any more.

One thing I've been drawing up are lists of OU courses which appeal, though studying these now would be somewhat difficult due to all the brain damage. But maybe ...

And then perhaps I could be a bit of an independent researcher (again a challenge with the health problems), producing journal papers which appeal to me. That would be nice.

Nice to be optimistic though.

Aww, thanks Ruby. Nice to know I'm not alone in thinking everything is rubbish at the moment! Yes, I know it will pass. And thank you too Bilbo, I really shouldn't complain just 'cos I've got the flu again and work alone.

Am not going to work tonite, am going to read a novel, go to bed early, and try and wake up with a positive attitude. Thanks guys!

my OH has just got a job, although not yet completed his PhD and he hates it! He is desparate to leave, finish his PhD and get an academic job. He is employes as a specialist in his field, but he is very frustrated because his job turns out to essentially be admin. Its def not worth the money - and he would much rather have the salary of an McDonalds area manager!

An academic job in his field will allow him to go in on the days he decides, plan his own schedule and while not paying much money, will allow us to ENJOY life! His mother said he should just stayi n the job and then he will get paid lots - but news to her - not everyone is motivated by cash! he is motivated by flexible working arrangements and the opportunity to get a new puppy!

This is a very interesting thread, and interestingly the gloom mongers have incited a rage of positive thinking ;-)

Yes, we're not stupid, if we were we most likely wouldn't be sitting here in front of our assorted computers on all sides of the planet tapping away on a postgraduate forum bemoaning our PhD candidate status. I think initially maybe we do live in a happy, shiny world where we do our PhD, are offered mega money lectureships (and yes it is mega money - compared to every single one of my previous jobs where the most I EVER earnt was £6 an hour a £30K+ salary is HUGE), and live a life of genteel academic pursuit writing, reasearching and spreading kind words to lowly students who come to our offices bent and broken and we send away fired up and ready to write successful essays. Alternatively we are published, we immerse ourselves in a research profession where our families send food under the door while we while away the time producing ground breaking, world reknowned papers and books and live in big houses with two horses and the weekends off - or was that just me :p

However, that shiny gleam is quickly knocked away and we begin to understand the reality of the situation. There are so many pitfalls, life in academia isn't all that - but let me tell you, its a darn site better than working on the checkout at Asda and being bossed about by a prepubesent supervisor and shouted at regularly by Joe Public, or working in a call centre and spending all day every day in front of a computer screen, headphones on, no escape, and again, being screamed at by your supervisor and the public in equal measure. Work is rarely fun, its hard, its called work for a reason - I'd prefer to think that just maybe I can spend the rest of my working life doing something that will at least kind of stretch me - where my shining moment in the day isnt' managing to achieve the 22 items per minute scanning rate.

I've never stuck at anything, ever! My CV looks like a patchwork quilt, its a flipping mess. Its a run of deadend, shortlived, meaningless jobs. That's not me anymore - I thought I was a loser, that all I'd achieve in this life was possibly a shop floor position if I was lucky and could prevent brain death and resignation long enough from sheer boredom, frustration and misery to get there. I look at myself now, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I astound myself. I began A levels several times at nightschool but got bored and dropped out a term in. This time I didn't - I saw it through, I got damned good grades that shocked me quite literally to the point of tears. Yes I was the one standing, paper in hand, sobbing hysterically at the A grades on the sheet in front of me out of sheer astonishment - I even checked the name twice over and the number incase I'd got the wrong ones. When my tutor advised me to go to uni I literally laughed - really I did, I laughed at her and said that there was NO way I could go to uni - she pushed me, I applied, i got interviewed. That was the worst experience to date, I came out shaking and thinking I was so not cut out for this life. What I now know is that he was testing me - you say this, but what about this, well if its that how would you explain this on and on for half an hour. The letter came, I had my place and the letter said that the Prof had very much enjoyed our discussion - how shocked and proud was I????? I defered as I was expecting my daughter, I started when she was 11 months old and in my first year I won a prize and got a first - again, cue tears and complete astonishment. When I finally got the first class with hons I was still shocked. But so incredibly proud, I'd proved I could stick at something. I was offered an MA with full funding, again, a distinction - more shock. The feeling that I couldn't do it, that I wasn't good enough has been a continual sticking point with my supervisor ;-)

Now I'm doing this - a

This may be true for you. I am not sure how generalisable that is though. Most of the PhDers in my old team were naive about the realities of life after their PhDs and had the "I am going to be the one that makes it" attitude. Btw, When did you come to "KNOW ALL ABOUT IT". After you were accepted for your PhD? Masters level? undergrad? A-levels? Nursery?

Lets turn the situation around, how would you feel if some 2nd year undergraduate came up to you, asked you about your PhD. When you talked about the good parts, but also because you feel some kind of moral obligation you mention the hurdles and pitfalls and how to avoid mistakes (e.g. keep references listed as you go). They then turn to you and say:
"Oh I know all about studying! I have read loads of books and written loads of essays so I will be fine. I NEVER write my reference list until afterwards, and I always manage alright. Btw, why are you trying to put me off doing a PhD".

Yeah? Frustrating isn't it?

No one is trying to get people to give up their PhD. For God's sake, we trained in the dissemination of knowledge and most of us have some aspiration towards contributing to human betterment. Its just many of us can no longer stand the hypocrisy of a SYSTEM that sells such a dream to unknowing aspirants ("do a PhD and you are guaranteed a respectable job/stable career/decent money/balanced lifestyle").

Likewise its tough to see something amazing (a dedicated protected time for scholarly reflection and achievement bestiwed only to a few) being sold as a means to something else (c.f. the list of things that Walminskipeas made). Thats not an attack on him, as I admit I bought into this "dream" just the same- and it made me miserable because the reality for me was NONE of those things. Its only now, after coming out, I can take stock of what I had actually accomplished.

And move on. (Which is why I am more optimistic now).

Also I am not sure where this version of the world where people are either PhD student academics/ or ASDA checkout attendents or call centre workers is coming from. The sort of people in the first group are very, very unlikely to end up for the duration of their lives doing the tasks of the latter.

Compare "like" with "like".

I am from a cohort of graduates that attended a Russell Group university. My friends with similar capabilities did things like medicine, law, management, finance, performing arts. Other started their own businesses. Some are more successful/ richer/ happier than others. However, the one thing I do notice is a) my training was longer than most, b) my prospects as an aspiring academic were more similar to the jobbing actor than the trainee solicitor. Even though everyone else thought I was made and on easy street.

Yes, I know I said I wasn't going to be at my computer and was off to read a novel - but got caught up and thought 'I'll just do this little bit of work..."...

...anyhoo...I just wanted to raise that people on the forum seem to have an either/or mentality about working life after the PhD. It's either will go into academia, otherwise it's dead-end checkout type jobs. I can absolutely appreciate people being thankful they won't ever have to work crap jobs again (hopefully!), but there is more to life than either of these two options. I can also understand people not wanting to get caught up in the corporate world, but there must be other options? Have been thinking about this lately, thinking about how to get a job in a think tank, or a private research organisation...just trying to think laterally about what else I could do with this bit of paper...use the research skills, but not in academia...

That's all really, just some musings....

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I can only speak from my own experience BHC - and I lost the second half of my post where I was trying to say that this gives an opportunity, a sense of achievement and a postitive way forward. I've done both - I'm no doubt significantly older than you and no matter what the pitfalls in this new life - ie postdoc - they can be nowhere near as bad as life prior to it! Doing this gives you the chance to have a dream and to quite possibly follow it - that in itself is more than enough reason to stick with it. If you don't get the dream then, as you rightly say, the chances of ending up back on the checkouts is significantly lower than it was prior to HE. If nothing else it gives you something nobody can take away from you - the thought that you've done something so incredible as to stick at it for 7+ long years (including BA and MA), produce something original and make, in your own small way a contribution. I'm not saying its either/or - far from it - I'm just saying, when trying to stay positive as I'm sitting here raking through hundreds of pages of handwritten victorian pages looking for a single name, that there is a darned good reason to do this and stick at it. It opens doors, not only academic but corporate that would be slammed in your face if you hadn't gone through the hoops.


Maybe you have to have had both lives to really appreciate what this all means. I find that (and I don't know how old you are, what your history is, so this isn't aimed at you BHC - or mullet - can I also call you mullet??;-)) younger people who have left school, done A levels, gone straight to uni, through the system without struggling to live in dead end jobs with no hope in sight (students do them but there's that light at the end of the tunnel) appreciate far more quite how special this is. I don't mean to sound patronising, but having spoken to students in my own uni and online, its just the way it seems to be.

To be fair, I did say I didn't want to be unduly negative - many people do go on to establish academic careers. And I wouldn't suggest people give up their PhDs. There are a great many positive experiences about having that time to explore a subject in great depth, in a manner that no one has ever done previously, and there's plenty of international conferencing opportunities and the like (though casting not having to work in McDonalds as a positive experience is fatuous - people who are accepted onto PhD programs are well capable of competing for the remaining graduate jobs that are "out there"; I do sometimes feel that the unrealistic spectre of a McJob serves simply to shore up a sense of worth among PhD students; it is really not difficult to abandon a PhD and walk into a decent graduate job, and I know of several people who have done precisely that). I had the opportunity to spend 3 months doing research in North America; just to be clear, I don't look back on that and regret it.

But it's a simple fact of life that there will be fewer and fewer academic jobs out there for people over the coming years, which is why I strongly believe it is the responsibility of academic departments to urge their PhD students to consider what their PhD could lead on to if not an academic career in the longer term. And they don't really do that effectively enough at present, which is why I make it my business to try to make that clear to PhD students wherever they may happen to be (this forum and others like it). So it's even more vital than ever (IMO) to try to enjoy the PhD experience as it happens, but not become too fixated on it as a gateway to a specific career (i.e. academia). Most likely, a 9-5 is what beckons afterwards - not on a checkout as some seem to think, but certainly in some kind of private sector capacity. And PhDs generally do very well in such enviornments. This isn't negative, it's realistic (plus, I think the 8 points that Walminskipeasucker outlioned in the original post were effectively a description of an academic career, even thoguh he/she professed otherwise).

"Failing" to establish an academic career is not automatically a negative - in many ways it can be a very positive experience (albeit some years down the line; changing career always involves a coupe of years of uncertainty and insecurity, which can be difficult to cope with); but the transition period (essentially, the "giving up" of the academic dream, which is my case was a very strongly-felt dream) is a difficult one, and one that the profession deals with (in my experience) poorly. That's all I'm trying to communicate here, and it pays to be aware of it. It doesn't cancel out the positives, but it shouldn't be marginalised/under-estimated either.

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Hello everyone, just to get this thread back on track and talk about the positives in what we are doing: I just had an AMAZING time at my department, we had a seminar at which a prominent film maker spoke, I sat next to an academic I really admire in the pub afterwards and had a brilliant chat about one of the directors I'm studying, who was a friend of said admired academic, and I'll be meeting him again to discuss it further. To top it all my supervisor seems to think my work is really good; he read out a paragraph and said I REALLY like this bit (capitals for emphasis only) and grinned. I feel like me, as I truely am, alive and switched on, like I have an electricity running through my bones which I couldn't get any other way; crickey I could be writing a Whitman or Thoreau poem. Anyhow, it felt as if I had come right back home. And the best thing about it is that there is a chance I could be part of this community and intellectually active in this subject I love for decades to come.





Oh, and BHC, I'm afraid that, in this instance, nobody asked for your account of what could happen in the future, unless, of course they were the good things; that was the whole point of Wally's thread, so the analogy you gave isn't comparable at all.  If a second year undergraduate came up to me and said: 'I've heard so much about the negative aspects of studying; I need cheering up and motivating, please tell me about the good things I will get from doing a degree/ studying', I would absolutely not then launch into an account of the bad things which could happen, unless of course I was aiming to throw them into a deep depression (joke!). And that is, in effect what the ghosts of Christmas future have done (not the depression part).







Of course I know you're not trying to get us to give up our studies, I was exaggerating for dramatic effect and because we've heard sooo much about the bad stuff from TGCF (the ghost of crimb future) that I'm struggle to find reasons why it seems so necesary to give us regular reminders of our impending doom. I'm sure a bunch of bright sparks such as ourselves picked up on that warning of imminent disaster the first time it was broadcast on WJs thread not so long ago; indeed, it was at that moment that a great big capital D for doom was branded on my forehead. I didn't 'know all about it (capitals for emphasis only)' at nursery school, but I did have a clue by the time I was doing my A'levels (at the age of 24) and learning that Noam Chomsky supported himself and his family by flipping burgers when he wrote his breakthrough works. This gave me an incling that this wasn't going to be an easy path; that's probably why I waited so long to do it, I knew I need to be strong; but I also knew that it must be one hell of a thrill and satisfaction if someone was willing to make that kind of sacrifice to do it.





Cheer up BHC, at least for our sakes on this thread, even if you're not keen yourself. Your wisdom is appreciated, but this particular conversation is about something other than the bad stuff of academia. It's bit like choosing 'Every Day is Like Sunday' by the Smiths as your karaoke tune at a wedding. We know there are gong to be grey days ahead, but right now we are celebrating.





It'd be great of we could keep this thread about the positive as much as possible; after all, that's why Wally started it. We have plenty on threads from WJ and BHC etc about the bad things that could happen, so lets have a positive one too.