I have a friend who works for a, badly organised, city council and is given lilttle work to do all day, just sits in his offce chatting to the admin staff. He reckons they don't keep tabs on what and how much work people are doing, that they have no auditing systems.

Don't apologise Ephiny! I think having a reality check from the world outside academia is very valuable, I'm sure that I suffer terribly from grass is greener syndrome when the "real" world isn't always that different to academia. I remember that my job in industry (pre-phd) bored me to tears because I felt I wasn't learning, at that point I longed for the days of my 80 hour week dissertation project and couldn't wait to start my phd. I agree that feeling you're doing something worthwhile is terribly important, the only problem is that I doubt the impact of my work, science is such a fickle mistress! I think that's the main reason I'm interested in moving to a job where I'd see the direct impact of my field on patient's lives.

Having temped for the council in my old city, I can completely believe this. I found it the most soul-destroying job in the world and ended up signed off because of stress. I live in fear of working for an organisation like that again.

Having just had another rejection - not even an interview I now wish I had never started my PhD. I am over-qualified for most jobs and obviously under qualified for the jobs I do want so I don't know what to do next. I have two years in which to submit my part-time PhD but I need full-time work to do this. I don't want to do a shit job for this time and wonder if it would be better to give up and do another one year course which would be more relevant to the career I want. I'm feeling pretty depressed at the moment, especially as I am in my forties so time is not on my side.

You know, if it wasn't so serious and dreadful, you could actually write a sitcom (like Green Wing) on life pre- peri- and post PhD in the UK. There's just so much about it you could lampoon, from conferences and grant applications, funding and teaching to social life or lack thereof. Now that's an idea for my career box if things don't work out. :-(

The civil service is not all it's cracked up to be either - I have worked in this area for a long time, and some jobs can be really demanding. I regularly worked 10, 11 hour days, some weeks clocking up an additional 20 hours of unpaid overtime, and also did not get time in lieu. Also gone through periods of having to work on week-ends etc. As others have mentioned, it's just the nature of work - people are expected to get the job done, regardless of the hours it takes. I think there are few jobs, except maybe apart from low-skilled ones, which don't require unpaid overtime.

bloody better be worth it....:p

I think even if we don't go on into a job in academia though, having done the phd will be worth it for all the little life lessons you get from it, plus you'll not have to look back and think 'if I had done a phd would I be in a better position...'. I have been told that post-docs are worse than phds for stress, time wise etc but I think a lot of that depends on yourself, the job you've got, and your supervisor and I think a lot of the issues regarding working later, not switching off etc are true for many non-academic jobs as well. Even when I was working in various jobs throughout school and my undergrad I had to step in when people called in sick, work (unpaid) overtime, miss lunch breaks and all that fun stuff, and it certainly wasn't as interesting to me as science is!:-)

I think that no matter what side of the fence you're on the grass will always be greener on the other side - or appear to be. The work market is such now that for a 'good' professional job you aren't gonna do a 9-5 unless you're incredibly lucky. Fixed contracts don't exist in most places now, its easier to buy in cheap and disposable labour and that's the case in a lot of fields of employment, and even if you get the hallowed high paid, 9-5 on a fixed contract anything can happen in your life that can destroy it in a moment. In my case (although I hated my job) it was illness - very sudden - very drawn out. The one certainty is that there are no certainties in life. On that basis, my personal feeling is that you should go for the dream, for me, at the moment, that dream is an academic career - it may actually turn out to be a nightmare, but if you're doing something that interests and challenges you then hey, you're doing ok. The short term nature is a nightmare, but things change so fast and go through cycles - academia may never be what it was again, but then no job is perfect. If you decide to go into the big wide world then there's every chance that eventually you'll find something that suits you, I think the key is to be open to possibilities. To be perfectly honest though, right now, all I really want is something that pays the bills and doesn't make me completely lose the will to live lol.

at this moment.....I'm wishing I'd canned the academic aspirations and joined the armed forces.

Just had feedback for my first article proposal....and let's say this, it wasn't good.....I'm doing a prescribed topic in my area, but one that I would never have picked myself due to the fact that it's never be done (and for flaming good reasons it seems). I'm in my final year, due to submit in September....there's no jobs to go to, I've got oodles to do and other phd-ers seem to effortless get published/offered book contracts/ appear like geniuses while I'm stuck here with this albatross round my shoulders.

Not a good day....fed up, bored, disappointed and questioning the whole freakin' point...

So no, Wal.....I don't think it is....

(then again, ask me again tomorrw)

This is something I think a lot about and it often brings me to tears. I don't think I am in a position right now to judge if it was worth it. At this point in time with generally low esteem and low job prospects I would say no, it was not worth it. But I hope a decade from now I will be able to say it was worth it.

I'm only a few months into my PhD so maybe I'll change my mind about this, but I really do think it's worth it, for me. Can't speak for other people, it depends on what you want from the PhD and from your working life I think. Before my PhD I spent 15 years working in a lot of different environments and jobs, and the 'grass is always greener' syndrome is so true - I haven't yet come across any job that didn't have serious downsides. There are downsides to doing a PhD, and downsides to trying to work in academia, but I think we have to measure those against the upsides. There's nothing more soul-destroying than slogging your guts out for something that either doesn't interest you or that just doesn't seem to matter in the grander scheme of things. And one thing about research is that it matters - by definition, we're making an original contribution to the sum of human knowledge, and that alone makes a huge difference, I think. (And hopefully we're all doing research that interests us, at least a little!)

My working life before the PhD consisted of working for low wages (my bursary is a significant pay rise) in a high-stress environment with little control over my own work, with line managers who were significantly less knowledgeable and intelligent than me (that sounds snobby, but it's true). I believed in what I was doing, which is why I stuck it for so long, but I believe in my PhD research, and in the contribution I could make as part of an academic career as well. And even if I can't get an academic job at the end of the PhD, it will have been a privilege to spend three years being paid to pursue a topic that interests me. But that sounds horribly idealistic, I'm sure I'll become jaded and disillusioned with the whole thing, that's what's happened in every other job I've ever held, after all!

Walminski: I think although a PhD is stressful, its more straightforward than Postdoc life. A PhD student has quite a lot of protection in many ways, and nowadays there is an onus on universities not to over-exploit PhD students, teach transferable skills, provide space, mentorship, resources and such. Postdocs on the other hand are put under far more pressure because there is no one really looking out for them, and even if they are mistreated they are disposable, short term contract labour and there will always be another one coming along shortly. Also with the looming funding cuts in HE I would say the pressure is going to be to do far more with far less, which is never nice.

With regard to going into the NHS, I would wonder to do what? Again as a public service the NHS will have cuts. Unless you have a core profession already (medic, nurse, etc) you are unlikely to be ready qualified to do anything commensurate with your educational level. Your PhD is not really going to do much for you in the first instance. Of course you could go down the graduate management trainee route, like other grads, but this is oversubscribed and far from easy.

Someone else mentioned Clinical Psychology, and this too is oversubscribed and PhDs, while helpful, are not enough by themselves without prior substantial NHS clinical experience. (Also things like a 2:2 degreee, poor references or prior mental health problems will eliminate you from that particular race). Ditto graduate medicine. Things like nursing and physio are possible, but are pitched at very different level to that of a doctoral level candidate.

Getting out of the public sector idea is probably your best bet. Private companies are slowly becoming more attuned to taking on postgrads (especially as undergrads have staturated the market making undergraduate qualifications meaningless).

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[quote]Quote From badhaircut:


Someone else mentioned Clinical Psychology, and this too is oversubscribed and PhDs, while helpful, are not enough by themselves without prior substantial NHS clinical experience. (Also things like a 2:2 degreee, poor references or prior mental health problems will eliminate you from that particular race). Ditto graduate medicine. Things like nursing and physio are possible, but are pitched at very different level to that of a doctoral level candidate.

[quote]

Actually, I have done a lot of research on the Clin Psych doctorate as that was originally my career choice (before I realised I loved research more), and you are right in that often PhDs on their own are not enough to get onto the course, but I know people who have done clinical PhDs who have got onto the course without NHS experience. There are also people on this course who obtained 2.2s (not many, but a few who have an outstanding amount of relevant experience) and I also know people on the course who have themselves experienced mental health problems, and now certain universities are actually encouraging people with personal experience of mental health problems to apply for the course. The courses are widening their definition of what constitutes 'relevant experience', particularly now that there are fewer and fewer assistant psychologist jobs available. The uni I am at runs this course and I have a number of friends on the course and friends applying to do the course. I'm not pointing this out just to contradict what you have said for the sake of it, just so that the post doesn't discourage people applying for the DClin course if their heart is set on it and they happen to fall into one of those groups (2.2, mental health issues etc!). It is very tough to get on the course, but the requirements are continually being revised! Best, KB

Sneaks where are the 'civil service' jobs advertised?