This sounds like a truly horrific situation. I hope that you manage to get things resolved in a timely manner.
Sorry I can't offer any more direct advice, but I'm sure we're all thinking of you and hoping for a positive outcome!
xx

Thats good advice about refusing mphil. but how do you go about actually saying NO to a mphil. did you really have to fight for it ? what sort of things did you say /do?

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I would take the masters degree and go... Unless your PhD can be obtained easily. Your chances of finding a decent employment after you graduate a probably very low.

This "failure" may be your ticket to a much happier life!

My first viva took place just over three years ago, so remembering the exact conversation is a bit difficult now, but it was along the lines of :

Examiner: "Unfortunately, your thesis just isn't up to the standard required for a PhD....its more like what I would expect to see at the end of the first year.....What we are prepared to do is offer you an MPhil, without major corrections"

Me: "No, I'm not accepting an MPhil....I mean, I already have a MSci from ######, so another masters would be pointless".

At this point, the internal examiner (who had chaired the viva and done most of the talking), said that in that case, they could recommend a resubmission. However, he stated that even after a years extra work, I still probably wouldn't have enough work to even warrant a second viva. When I stood firm, he said that they would put me down for a resubmission, but that he would have to go and check the regulations governing this.

In hindsight, I was confused as to why they didn't just insist on awarding an MPhil, as I couldn't have appealled against their decision on the basis that you can't appeal against matters of academic judgement. I have therfore come to the conclusion that they were up to no good, and panicked when I challenged their decision.

In any case, if you think you have suffered from bad supervision, a badly designed project or lack of facilities, I think that threatening to lodge an appeal is a worthwhile course of action, as in my case they seemed terrified of this happening. However, it took me another two years to graduate with my PhD, so it wasn't a quick and easy option!

I thought I had better clarify a couple of points I made in my last reply, because I'm not sure that refusing to accept an MPhil would be the best idea, or that it would even work, in most circumstances. In my case, there were very significant extenuating circumstances which meant that, on the spot, I considered it to be a good idea:

1). Just prior to the internal examiner telling me I would be offered an MPhil, I was told that my supervisor should never have offered my project,in the first place as it was effectively unpassable (in the way it had been deisgned). However, the external told me that "...there must be a standard", and that they were therefore not prepared to show any leniancy.

2). I was told that my thesis contained an amount of work that would be expected at the end of a student's first year. However, I had been through three end of year assessments, and my progress had always been described as satisfactory.

3). The viva examination rules at my university stated that the external examiner should chair the examination, with the internal ensuring that the exam progressed properly and regulations were followed. However, my external spoke only rarely, the internal led the examination, and they asked me very few questions about the content of my thesis, concentrating instead on alternative experimental techniques and on the problems I had with my supervisor. About 10 minutes into the viva, I had formed the impression that it had already been decided that I would fail. This was shown to be true the next day, when it emerged that the examiners had told members of staff in my research group that I would only get an MPhil the day before my viva had taken place. I already knew that the rules of my university explained that the assessment of a PhD student was based 50% on their thesis and 50% on their performance in the viva, and that it was therefore impossible to fail the test before it had even taken place.

4). I already knew that a student in my department had, several years previously, turned down an MPhil and was instead allowed to resubmit after 12 months. Later on, it seemed more a case of him being offered both options and being asked which he preferred, but at the time of my viva I thought he had been told to accept an MPhil and had refused, saying he would instead lodge an appeal. I then took this approach and fortunately it worked, although the examiners did take about 20 minutes before the end of the viva trying to get me to accept the masters

5). I already had an MSci, and took the position that an MPhil would be worthless, especially in my case when I had already spent 4 1/2 years on my PhD. That isn't to say that an MPhil is intrinsically worthless of course, just that it wasn't very much to show from more than 4 years work.

Since my first viva, both myself and members of my family involved in academia have spoken to academics at several other universities, and no one has ever heard of a student refusing to accept the judgement of their examiners during a PhD viva. That doesn't of course mean that it has never happened, as universities tend to be very secretive when it comes to disputes. However, I have been told that the fact that my examiners panicked and backtracked on their original judgement must mean that they knew they were up to no good. This is the key problem with this strategy; if the examiners really do just think your work is poor, they are likely to get very upset, and could potentially recommend you fail completely instead.

I have subsequently lodged complaints to various bodies, a process that is ongoing; I intend to write the whole story up in a website when I have finally finished. However, if I have learned anything it is that I should have started complaining as soon as I could see problems occurring in my Ph.D. In my case, my supervisor was a well known bully in the department, and unfortunately I was afraid that compl

Oh my God. I am so sorry to hear what happened to you! In fact, I don't want to sound ignorant or not to mention naive, but I have never heard about PhD being failed. I know it could be with no or minor corrections but not failed! I cannot say that this is an encouraging thought but it is definitely an eye opener for people like me who were simply unaware.

I do have a question though to everyone. How is this possible that having had a supervisor who is reviewing whatever you submit, usually on regular basis, can lead to such a bad end? How could he/she let it happen!

Finaly, since I know now that it is actually possible to fail PhD then what are factors that might lead to this (of course except the horrific supervisor)?

I've was told at a viva course that 10% of students fail (without any degree or referral) - it's quite a sobering statistic.

although I can see that if someone has submitted without the say-so of their supervisory team, then failure might be an option, if that team think the work is of sufficient merit to pass, then there must be something wrong somewhere with the system. Having said that though, I had a second go when I was taking my fellowship viva, because one of the people on the examining team was deemed out of line and I got a phonecall the next day, before any results had been announced, to say that I would be invited to sit the viva again as he had been, shall we say, trying to prove how good he was (he wasn't) but that isn't quite the same. 10% seems very high, and rather strange. To have got that far, and done that much work, under what is supposed to be a system that is geared to guide towards success only to find that it appears to have a built in failure factor seems, well, silly.

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Thanks Dav B that is really good advice, and i appreciate you trying to remember the conversation you had. that is really good to know! and i appreciate you giving us all that information. you're right it is a very difficult situation to have to deal with ... but well done on getting your phd in the end.
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failing a phd is every students worst nightmare. i know its mine!! :$ i worry that my mind will just go blank and i wont remember a thing or be able to explain anything:$

Olivia1 - any news on what is going to happen?

OMG. After reading all these replies now i understand that i must demand for whatever i do in my PhD life. This entire page sounds negative to me. Anyways life is a challenge take it up until the end. Those who are brave are free...(up)

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I'm really sorry to hear this has happended, Olivia. This is truly any PhD students worst nightmare- and I'm terrified that something like this might happen to me. Given my initial knockbacks due to the upgrading process (although I passed second time round with great reviews from external supervisors) I'm seriously worried that I'll be knocked back again and subsequently failing my PhD. :$

I know from the upgrading process my supervisors willl not allow me to submit anything until they think it's ready- which is why Olivia's situation is so worrying!!

I hope you've had a successful appeal Olivia?

Found some interesting papers about completion etc- I was curious to see about the stats regarding completion rates...

http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2005/05_02/

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=310709§ioncode=26

http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2007/07_29/

one way or another i would characterise it as a disgrace if a student submits a thesis that is failed.

either because the supervisory team should have not allowed it to be submitted if it wasnt of the requisite standard or the examiners were either not qualified enough to properly assess the thesis and/ or there is some political agenda at hand. I could also be the case that you were just a victim of the subjective and non standardized way that PhD thesis are examined.

I just dont understand how you got through each year with satisfactory progress and when you submitted you are shot down by your examiners and not even give a chance to make corrections resubmit

I was doing a part-time PhD for 9 years. I am a single parent and have had to juggle a lot to even go to university. I was assigned a new supervisor towards the end of my PhD because my original supervisor had retired. She had me doing re-writes and changing styles and jumping through hoops. Then a few weeks before I was going to submit she sent me a letter saying the original design was not suitable for a post-grad thesis...and if I re-do the whole thing from scratch and meet criteria which is physically impossible I could achieve a masters degree! I wrote a letter of complaint / appeal to the post-grad office. I was politely told ...tough. I am now 40 years old and working on a check out. In the mean time my friends who have not even got A levels have got really good positions because they have spent the last decade or so working their way up.. I was stupid and dedicated my time and energy and money trying to get a doctorate. My son turns 18 next month so I lose my single parent status so I'm crossing my fingers that I can claim housing benefit to help pay my bloody rent when the tax credits stop. And to think once upon a time I was allowed to marked 1st and 2nd yr degrees papers and advise on 3rd yr projects...

======= Date Modified 06 Jul 2009 10:16:06 =======
Sorry to hear about this, Olivia - any more updates on the situation?

And you, too, Checkoutgirl! :(

I recently quit a doctorate after a year and a half and have deferred to an MSc (even though I have an MEng!). I'm hoping to join some sort of graduate scheme and work my way up (or maybe even join the police) - best decision I ever made. I couldn't imagine the nightmare of spending a large amount of your life doing a PhD only to not be awarded with it - let us know what happens and good luck.