Hi,

This is a little unfair. You wrote this LONG post which was the basis for all of these thoughtful responses below. Now you delete that entire thing, remove the whole pregnancy related issue (which was the centre of it all) and make the posts below look a little stupid! A new visitor to the site/thread then sees a brief 4 point post on supervisors and a line of lengthy posts on pregnancy related viewpoints. The purpose of this site being archived is for people to glean insights from the experiences of others, and not just to offer one to one or many to one instant support. The latter is an important purpose, but not an all important one! The former is important too.

Cheers!

i have read the original post, and all the other replies you have made too, but I'm still not quite sure what is your exact problem, or why you appear to be so angry about everything, unless you are using it as some kind of escape mechanism. The world in your lab will not revolve around you and your needs, however much you might wish it to be so, that's life and happens everywhere. personal and private life do not necessarily mix well.

Although we sometimes moan about our supervisors, and a few are less than helpful, sometimes big time, at the end of the day they deserve a bit of respect and to call them useless and illogical without doing something positive about it solves nothing. If it is as bad as you say, go to their head and explain; in a calm way; why you think you need a change of supervisor. my not very useful second supervisor was moved to role of advisor, I didn't even have to ask for that, but if he had remained I would have treated him with the respect he deserves and got on with things.

I expect your situation is unique in your lab, so although something (like rules) may appear unique for you, it may just be that they are trying to do their best for you in the circumstances, to get you the Phd you want.

I don't know what to say about the use of your work, or how it is being taken away. It could be a pretty big accusation to make and if so would need a lot of evidence to back it up. I wouldn't go there myself (but then I wouldn't even think for a second that my supervisors would do such a thing, and I expect most people here would think the same.)

you need to calm down a bit and take a step back, are you sure you are not just putting the wrong interpretation on this? It is easy to do this when under a lot of stress, which given your circumstances would be quite normal I expect. PhDs are a lot of work, require a lot of time as do babies/young children both are equally demanding, and neither will take turns!

could you put your PhD on hold for a while to give yourself a complete break? It might be the best way forward.

I feel a little bit sad that you chose to make the responses you did, after I sent you a sympathetic private post at 7.00am this morning, when I was in a rush to go out, because I thought it might be helpful.
I quote the following as you may otherwise delete it:
"I believe when you were scolded unreasonably by someone in the lab, then you felt you were really angry and your heartbeat fast, abdomen became increasingly painful, and immediately you had some fluid coming out from your vagina, and finally checked out it was blood! And a day later, the baby coming out after another an hour of intense pain. Should this miscarriage not the atrribute of the people in the lab, I wonder what would be the cause. "
This is really rather symptomatic of the cause-effect relationship you've chosen to draw. It's rather like saying (a) I ate chocolate today and (b) it rained therefore (c) it rained because I ate chocolate. There isn't necessarily a link. As I have, to my sadness, learnt, many many women have miscarriages in the early weeks of pregnancy. I'm not saying you being stressed wasn't an issue, but I don't think you can attribute it solely and directly to the behaviour of the people in your lab. I am very sad that you had this experience, but please try to step back and see the bigger picture.
I think the pregnancy issue is separate but relevant. It's important that you understand that the amount of time you've taken out might nark your supervisors; I say this, as I told you in my PM, as a married woman who fully intends to have a baby during her (arts based) PhD.
The second issue is of your supervisor's behaviour. Again I'm a bit concerned that you might be creating chocolate-rain equations. But if you're not, I've already given advice as regards what I think you ought to do. Quickly.
Finally, I think it might be worth you trying some anger management/ stress avoidance techniques.

I am really sorry that you lost your baby.
BUT I beleieve that you are a little unfair with your supervisor. A PhD, whether we want to see it or not, is a job. If you had a "normal" employer, do you think that s/he would let you tale leaves like that? Even if they wanted to help you, they wouldn't have that affect your work and maybe their work, or the work of a lab.
I understand what you said about your religion, but you have to think is it possible to do your PhD, being in a lab with potentailly dangerous chamicals for the baby and have 1,2,3 babis in 4 years time?
Maybe all these feeelings is anger because you lost your baby. Maybe you need to see some specialist and talk about how you feel. Maybe, also, if you feel that it is your supervisor's fault you need to speak with him/her about it, or even with the lab people that you believe stress you.

I don't want to sound judgemental, but I really believe that you need to calm down a little bit, see a specialist and re-consider your options.

I must thank for the useful comments that many of you have made below. I know some are not really that sympathetic but this is not something that I need when I posted a msg here. I wrote such a long original message because I want people to honestly comment on the situation so can help me to get some new perspectives that I am not aware. Should this supervisor a bad guy or am I bias on the whole situation ... etc ... Of course, I talked to some of my close friends about the entire issue that I mentioned here, but sometimes, as you may know, friends are friends, and they just always support you in anything.

What I get here is valuable, though at first I am really sad to know. After summarising some of your comments, I know several things

1. It is nearly a consensus among the PhD / supervisor community that taking breaks are not that right thing ... even for any unexpected pregnancy or health problems.

2. Work and private issue are not neccessarily in harmony. One should never expect so.

3. I should have better anger management / EQ.

I understand my anger begins three years ago when I know my supervisor is not so capable of what I am actually doing. I am angry for my behavior at that time because I did not have the courage to talk to the division head, asking for a change of supervisor. Then later during my pregnancy, I encountered some very bad experiences from my supervisor again, it is indeed not so humane but now I understand it is just because of #1 that I mentioned - it is SIMPLY a concensus ... Then I think I am just too young and so inexperience in this cruel World. Maybe my career path is actually too smooth and maybe my family has been too good to me, I now know when you expect everything to be ideal of what you have expected, that is not right, especially when it is talking about private life in work, so it's #2. And of course, #3, it is useful that I should behave better especially I am a grown up now. But sometimes when I think I should smile and so in front of a bad guy, I cannot do it. Maybe you can give me advice on this if you have any experience before. And I really do not know what to do when the supervisor intends to get the work away from me, if anyone has such experience, please let me know and I would appreciate your advice in it. Once again, I am grateful for all those who gave comments here, I am sorry that I cannot address you all, but your comments and help will always be in my mind.

I am really sorry that I del the original msg and this may have caused inconvenience to people. This is actually something that I have never thought of. I del because after a second thought and from a reminder fr one of the people here, I think it is more convenient for people, whom I know should be busy but well educated ppl, to give comments and advice. And if people who really want to help, we can then PM each other for further details. I did not have a backup of the original msg and I am sorry that I cannot revive now. As you may know, I am very new to this forum and I actually am quite naive about the rules, I apologise again for any bad feelings that might have arisen.

And to pamplemousse, I am equally sad to read your message. If you have noticed, I replied your message before I sent you the PM, which you later reply me at 7 am. I hope you can get what you want very soon but before that, and I think if you are not a doctor, please do not comment whether my miscarriage is not because of the lab people. Your causal logic about the chocolate and rain is, I am afraid, not the best and appropriate description of my situation. Of course, I understand that you wrote such msg might because you want me to know things fr another perspective, but please know that I myself know exactly what was happening during that period and the change of my body. You actually hurt me deeply because I really know what is the actual likely cause and such cause has actually tortured me for a while. You know, when you know your study

(cont) study of PhD kills a life (near the end of 1st trimester already), it is never an easy task for you to settle down in a short time. I have medical background and I of course fully understand why one would have the miscarriage (you know, the most often, and what you have probably inferred, chromosomal abnormalities) and of course clinically it is not something really that rare. But if you are the first person in this situation, you will know what I feel and know. My faithful comment to you is that, never comment things when you are not so sure, and in such a rude way. Actaully from your words, I really felt your comments are rather aggressive. Maybe I am too sensitive but what you wrote of 'hyperbole', 'passive aggressive', people struggle to read your message, the casual conclusion that I del the original msg and I might also del the pregnancy msg all make me feel so. If you have aware, I del the original message after I replied your comments, so I have no intention to del such pregnancy part because it is not something that I should hide. I think this is something that I should clarify here and to you, rather than sending a PM, though I clarify some other things to you in PM previously. Anyway, I do treasure your comments and I believe you are much older and experience than me in handling things like this, and as you might have noticed, I took your criticisms and del my original post and make it short, so that people who'd like to help can give advice to me. I think you are a thoughtful person and it is something that I should learn from. If you have comments about how I can deal with my supervisor, I welcome your generous comments and it is indeed something that I urgently need, but please understand that I take things objectively already and am not drawing a chocolate rain relation in the issue, if you want more details for you to give advice, I would certainly promptly reply.

======= Date Modified 28 Jun 2009 21:28:39 =======
Well, being an outsider, I think that you are cruel and rude to the person who tried to help you. As I told you before, I can understand that losing a baby can be very difficult, but I don't think there is a need to turn against people who try to help you by giving you their advice. After all it is their opinion, which you have asked, and you are not obliged to agree with what they are saying.

I strongly feel that you should speak to someone about your problems, and by someone I don't mean your friends. I believe someone with experience on dealing with problems, a counsellor, a psychologist, can give you the help and support that you need.

======= Date Modified 28 Jun 2009 20:00:48 =======
double post! see above

======= Date Modified 28 Jun 2009 20:00:20 =======
Very briefly, you are torn and upset at losing your baby. See someone who can helop you deal with that grief.

A very small example (in no way near yours). I am doing a PhD, at a considerably young age, with immense financial issues. I pay overseas tuition, and do not take a penny from home. My work is limited to 20 hrs a week, and I have given up everything I ever liked (I am not a martry, I am doing it for myself, and that's fine). But I am 24, and I do not, for instance, even *know* where the movie theatres are in London. Some find it unbelievable, I do too. It affects my health and my social life.

And here comes the BUT. Sometimes, the sheer exhaustion and fatigue makes us snap and snarl at people, misunderstand them, sulk, be difficult, get frustrated, lose a sense of perspective and humour. Usually we do this with people we are close to in and outside work but sometimes we do it with just anyone!

And i realise, that our troubles, shattering as they may be, are ways in which we often misjudge, torment, even punish others. These may be helpful people on a forum (who we misunderstand), parents (who we take for granted and blame the fastest), teachers (who we think are out to find faults and get us down) and friends (who we think never understand).

Take a step back please, and allow yourself the space/time to hurt. And in that process, do realise that this is NOT the best time to form opinions about others. It is not fair.

PS: The chocolate-rain thing is called a parallel, a metaphor, and many other things. The purpose was not to belittle your worries, and the intended result not to hurt you. it was to use a rather common parallel to explain perceived causality.

Cheers, and feel better.

I think this is getting rather farcical to be honest, so I won't be leaving another post after this one.
You seem to have chosen to taken my advice to seek help with anger management/ stress management as a dig; in fact it was meant as constructive help (from someone who suffers from stress and has realised that sometimes it's best to seek help from a trained professional!). I think this probably underlines your issues; you are being decidedly over-sensitive, you continue to insist that your supervisor had some sort of direct responsibility for the (very sad) death of your baby, and you seem very angry with your supervisor, to an unhealthy level. Whenever anyone has tried, however sensitively, to point this out you become irate, and I have more than a slight suspicion that you are double posting under multiple usernames.

It's easy for others here to be cool headed (because this didn't happen to them) but if this is true you should be angry lol.

If you suspect your supervisor is stealing work, discriminating against you (different rules), or was responsible (even partly) for your miscarriage you should get legal counsel and do whatever you can to get rid of him. He should not be able to keep his job if this story is true. Maybe it's because I'm from the U.S., but here this guy would have already been hit with a big lawsuit.

hmm...

Hi pgs3,
I've tried reading all this thread and, once I finished untangling myself from the very convoluted ribbons of thought two things became very clear to me. I hope you will not take this post the wrong way; it is my outside opinion of what may be of use to you.
1) My sincerest condolences for your loss, there truly is nothing that can ever completely assuage the grief of losing a child, even one at the 1st trimester. However, there is no point ranting at other people trying to blame them for a miscarriage - you have a bio/medical background (as do I) so you also know that miscarriages just happen and often for no obvious reason whatsoever (chromosomal abnormalities aside). This was just terribly unfortunate and blaming work/other people for pure misfortune I think is grossly unfair on them. I agree with several people here that talking to someone would be very advantageous and the uni counsellor would be the best place to ask advice or have a quiet chat. This has happened to plenty of people (including my wife) so you are not alone in this respect.
2) If your super is stealing your work, go see the divisional head - it's unethical and fraudulent. Get this into the open.
3) 3 papers in oder to graduate? Sounds like tosh to me, I would again see the division head about this and get a review. For the latter 2 points, if you're not happy about the responses from the div head, go see the union. Whatever happens, fight for your rights, PhDs are hard enough without this cr*p going on!
Best of luck and, once again, I am sorry for your loss
H