Hazy I think it is if he is seeing to other people's work after he has promised to get round to hers then doesn't so she can't even prepare for late submission

There is absolutely nothing wrong in being bereft and disorganised. She gave him the opportunity to go for late submission. She has taken account of his feelings and situation and I think he owes the same to her now that a few weeks has passed. A death in the family is awful but she also has a lot riding on this (possible extra expenses and I job to start in January). He also could have just signed it off but is insisting on making comment, which will cause delay.

Nothing wrong if he came forward and said 'you know what, I know I promised to get it done but I actually do need that extra time'. But that is not what is happening, he keeps insisting it'll get done then doesn't do it and sees to other people.

I had the same situation first day starting my PhD and I was teaching a class that day. I got the phone call in the morning but it was too late to cancel. No I'm not a saint and I'm not saying that'he should be perfect after his experience I'm just highlighting that you can still honor your commitments or at least be honest about what you can and can't do.

I agree thought that you will have to trust your main supervisor.

i agree with wowsers, i had similar situations where initially i made allowances for the supervisor's difficult circumstances and was all understanding, only to find out that he was giving other students more time. and someone so close to submitting should have priority, sups should be organized enough to get that and not leave the responsibility to the students to chase them up. everyone knows that folks close to submitting are at the end of their tether so sups should have a pedagogical duty there and be reliable, or at least honest... that sups cannot be held to account for their shortcomings doesn't help and makes it worse.
if he had said - look i can't hack it, let's find a different solution - it would have been a different story, but he didn't.

that suggestion to write a mail to both of them, hazyjane, is a good one, as it gives both a chance to say something.

I find the responses interesting and a little hypocritical when considering the broader culture on this site as a whole, and agree with HazyJane's approaches.

Many individuals on this forum have lamented the exact opposite, that when they themselves have had difficulties in getting their thesis written, done, etc, and have complained about unsympathetic supervisors, or being pushed to get work done despite their emotional difficulties and mental health issues. Time and again I see posts of students talking about depression, anxiety, frustration, desperate for some comfort and an understanding supervisor.

Yet, here is a supervisor who is potentially going through the same thing, who has had a death, who could be seriously grieving, who might be struggling mentally, who might have mental health issues themselves which has been triggered by the death. And yet most of you have made claims that this is unfair, that they need to buck up and get the work done. Why is it that a student can have sympathy, but not the supervisor?

Supervisors, are humans. They have mental health issues, family issues, financial troubles just like the rest of us. That work they commented on. Was it a full thesis? Or just a chapter, it's easy to do a chapter in comparison to providing feedback on an entire piece of work.

You cannot expect everything to fall magically into place, you might not pass the viva, you might get an R&R, you might get major corrections, you might fail. What will you do about your job if that happens?

It's great that you are starting a new job, but it's important to keep in mind that the submission does not mean that the PhD ride is over. You cannot expect a supervisor to accommodate your needs outside of the university (i.e. the job).

It is frustrating when you need the feedback, but sometimes life gets in the way and accommodations have to be made. I think HazyJane makes some excellent points, I would heed their advice.

Sorry, but a PhD or MA student is an adult, not a child. The student should be responsible for their education. While a sup should be organised, so should the student, it's a two-way street. My supervisors never chased me for my work. Sometimes I had to prompt them to return my work, but supervising PhDs is not the only thing supervisors do. In fact, it forms a very little part of their overall workload.

Life happens. Life throws curveballs that sometimes you can't avoid. Things do not go to plan on occasion, or frequently. This is something that everyone has to learn to cope and handle effectively.

This is not to suggest that ElleBelle is not organised or not handling the situation appropriately. It appears that they are very organised, but unfortunately, things have happened and it's not working out properly as planned.

In general, I agree with you awsoci. Of course supervisors are humans too ;)

Nevertheless, it is more about the fact that he claims to do stuff and doesn't do it, even though he has the option to drop it due to the circumstances. It's okay if you are not able to correct a thesis under these circumstances but then stop insisting on holding back submission until you are done with the corrections or at least initiate the appropriate steps for a extension. It is also suspicious if he is correcting other people's work at the moment.

The job thing is always annoying and adds pressure but you have to do it like this. Otherwise you are jobless for months.

Hi all

Thanks to everyone who is taking the time to share their thoughts.

Let me say that I agree 100% with the statements that supervisors also experience personal problems and that of course allowances should be made for them (as they make for us) when times are hard. Moreover, it is true that post-grad students should take the majority of the responsibility for how their studies go - it is our lives after all - so one cannot sit back and expect people to jump whenever you snap your fingers.

That being said - let me just clarify two points, not to be defensive, but perhaps to explain my "frustration" - with the situation, not with my supervisor.

First off - I will be unemployed for 4 months this year - a "sacrifice" I decided to make to leave enough time to finish up my PhD before starting a new job. While Awsoci is right - I might get R&R or fail, I do not think one can be expected to remain unemployed to cater for these eventualities. But other than that, I left more than enough time to deal with examination complications. And I disagree with the statement that supervisors cannot accommodate one's needs outside of the university. I consider his needs outside of uni, so I think expecting him to consider broader implications of his actions is not too much to ask.

The other thing is that I would have been quite happy to submit without his comments - my main supervisor and I both explicitly asked him whether he would consent, and he refused twice. Even now, with only one day to go, he is saying he will "get to it".

I tried to be understanding and open to other solutions, and I truly had nothing but sympathy for him and his situation. I am not frustrated that life got in the way (as it does) but rather by how he is handling the situation now. If he would just say "I can't manage it, sorry" I would respect it, but the empty promises every few days are draining.

...so you have to submit tomorow, and he hasn't looked at it yet?! As someone mentioned above, won't tomorrow mainly be filled with printing, binding etc?

No, I think I definitely won't be able to submit. Just seems ridiculous to pretend that I will. I don't know why he can't just say it and then he can relax and read it whenever he has time - since I can only submit again in November anyway. I guess until this morning I was still hoping he would come through for me. But as Hazy said, probably the best I can do is to try and not resent him for the unnecessary stress, turmoil and financial implications and not let it sour the relationship more than it already has.

look, i hadn't meant to reduce this to the level of a five year old. i assumed that everyone is organized to the best of their ability. i meant this in basic terms of bogstandard human reliability and decency. it's not too much to ask that he drops a line to say whether he can or can't give feedback or suggest another solution without her having to write a hundredthousand mails.

sorry, the thing about making allowances for mental health problems, or problems outside uni is very much not a two way street in that we're not talking about two equals/mates commiserating in the pub here. the difference is that there is a vast unequality in power at play. his not getting his stuff together has vast consequences for her, while this is not true the other way round.
should we discard all the stories where sups mess up things good and proper (for whatever reasons) where the students having no recourse for rectification at all, or if it comes at a huge cost, financially and psychologically?

ellebelle is doing everything right and i hope the situation resolves for her, so, good luck.

And how far does the whole mentl health thing go, if he is still (presumably successfully?) supervising other students in the meantime?

Sure, I have sympathy for people with issues, but he's been looking at other people's work so he can't be that bad can he? I think that's the point. Like Ellebelle said, if you can't do it, say you can't do it, don't pretend you will.

I don't think the co-supervisor should be able to block your submission if your main supervisor is supporting it. The other way around would be different, but I think you should be able to proceed.

If I were you I would queue everything up for submission - work on the assumption that he will only make minor comments if any. I would also send an email to both supervisors (and copy in someone independent from the faculty e.g. a postgrad tutor) which simply lays out the following to cover your back:
- that you submitted your draft 6 weeks ago, as agreed.
- acknowledging the feedback your main supervisor gave and that you have made edits accordingly
- acknowledging that you would have liked to have incorporated feedback from the second supervisor but recognise it wasn't possible for this to be provided in a timely manner under the current circumstances.
- indicating that you intend to submit this week as per the original plan
- a very brief summary of the consequences of your not submitting this week (additional fees, issues with starting work etc).

Give a cut off point for getting feedback from your second supervisor (e.g. 4pm today? 9am tomorrow?) And then press send.

Hazy

Depends - there's a big difference between giving feedback on a chapter/paper vs an entire thesis. Unless I've missed something it's not clear what else he's given feedback on.

I do think it's not right for him to still be saying, at this stage, he'll get it done, but in terms of what's going on behind the scenes I don't think it's appropriate to guess/make assumptions.

Hazy Jane has made some really good points. The one that really sticks out to me though is that your co-supe should not be able to block your submission. There are even cases where students submit without any supervisor's agreement at all (not advisable of course, but it can and does happen).

You've had the comments back from your main supe. I really think that he/she should be supporting you in submitting on time and giving you the go ahead. Do you need both of their signatures to submit? I only needed one on my submission form. This is the most important thing at the moment, never mind anything else....

Madness to wait until November. It's all fresh now!