verdy, what does that post-doc entail? will you be doing any teaching at all, any admin, or just research?

as far as i understand post-PhD-jobs that are purely research are rarely paid much more than what you say. on the other hand, jobs that involve significant amounts of teaching tend to pay more (always depending on the field). my partner is a new lecturer in economics, hasn't even finished his PhD yet, and gets ca. 35'000 plus london allowance. but then, during term time he has been working on teaching stuff more or less 7 days a week. i guess the logic is that if you get a "just research" post doc, the low pay reflects the fact that this postdoc will enable you to progress in your career much faster than someone burdened with teaching duties.

Shani: that is a very good point. I havent thought about it this way before.
Vince: thanx for kind message. Probably I am too overstressed as well:)

as to negotiating: often the pay itself is not really negotiable. but what you can discuss is things like: less teaching duties, or, getting paid extra for any teaching that you do do. access to extra funding for projects. access do departmental funds for specific experiments. having a research student or research assistant for lab work, literature review, etc. things like that.

and yes, these day an average londoner who works full time cannot afford to rent a flat for him-/herself. if you look through gumtree you'll find that many of the ads for houseshares are by/for professionals. that's not because they think it's a fun way to live...

Is 24000£ after or before taxes? How much do you pay for taxes? 20%?
In my field (biology) in London, the range is 24000-31000£, depend where is the grant from. For example, grants from industries are the richest, grants from national research institutions are the lowest. Anyway, some european grant are very good, look at the Marie Curie.
Finally guys,if you complain the italians would go and kill somebody overthere, in the Parliament...dou you know how much is a post doc in Italy? about 11000 £ per year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's £24K BEFORE tax. I guess the tax is ~20%, I might be wrong (anyone?). I think this means it's a slight pay rise from being a PhD student. But when you consider all the crappy things you have to put up with as a PhD student are made even crappier as a post-doc, the slight pay rise hardly seems worth it.

I'm in biology too, and I have no experience/interest in doing any of the 'more important' research (e.g. medical or industrial) which is better funded. So I fear I will be limited to the post-docs at the lower-end of the pay scale. I'm still seriously considering doing a post-doc, but when i weigh up the advantages and disadvantages, the money is a disadvantage that really puts me off.

I been offered a post as a research techician in London at £27K/year (rolling contract- minimum of 1 year ). And I thought that would not be enough to survive on just for myself after tax and NI , as the rent will cost about £8K and the travel expenses that goes with it as well , so I turned it down for a similar job with about same wage in Northern England.

Back to this article : I thought the reason to become a post-doc is to continue doing research which one love and not about the money earn. By the way , Bus drivers work harder and are more stress than the post-docs I know , so they rightly should be paid more.

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That isn't a bad starting salary really. However I do think you should be a little more careful about equating your salary to that of others. There is no way you can compare your - what I assume will be a relatively comfy post - with that of a bus driver, who has to work shift patterns, be out in all weathers and driving conditions, deal with drunks and worse, and for all you know might wish they had the opportunity to pursue any educational dreams they may have - and their circumstances may make that impossible - you are not superior to them, just on a different path. Others have to work at the sharp end of many situations where most of us would be hard put to cope. remember also, that if things go right for you, and I hope they do, you will end up earning a lot more than they will ever do.

You are quite right masters, you don't get into research for the money. But as you get older, money, regretably, does become more of an issue. When you think about everything else that you want out of life (e.g. house, kids, car, regular holidays, becoming a James Bond-style villain etc) your earning power will have a profound affect on all these things.

I'll probably end-up doing a low-paid post-doc because i do love my field of research. I'll just have to keep renting in a houseshare; put-off having kids for the next 20 years; keep driving my Ford Fiesta; not holiday as much as i would like to and settle for being a small-fry mobster.

To make it clear: the bus driver comparison was just situational, I really don't think that post-doc and bus-driver jobs are comparable. Lets speak from now on about post-doc salaries in the context of the time, effort and financial resources involved in getting a PhD, and salary you get for it later:)

joyce: this is not my first job. I have worked 10 years as a research-assistant and as a lecturer. So, if I can get only the very bottom salary, who then (and when) get these top 31K? people in their 40s still on 1-year contracts??

masters: there is life outside of one's work. Of course there are some geniuses that literally live in their labs and have nothing else apart from work. But for the rest of us doing science without reward just because one likes it, is a history where scientists were mainly white upper-middle class males with secured income from properties they had inherited.

But its not really a valid comparison.

If researchers didn't do research, not much really would change. Sure we may not have that much scientific progression, but we wouldn't really miss it (as we have never had it).However, if the bus driver doesnt work lots of people would miss him....

The comparison about time and effort invested doesnt really fly either. Orchestra musicians put in just as much (if not more effort) and most are on even worse salaries than post docs. The nature of research (as in music, sports, acting and other highly competitive, but ultimately non-essential careers) is that there is a sprinkling of stars who make it big, and a huge underclass of strugglers and could-have-beens.

A PhD is NOT an investment, and should never be regarded as one. Its probably more like an expensive status symbol such as a Porsche. The letters after your name may impress some and it makes you more noticeable, but its more about the experience.

My postdoc salary is £28.5k? The minimum on the university scale for postdocs is £27k. I wonder if it depends on what union your university belongs to? A lot of universities seem to have the same salary scales as us but others use a different scale where £25k is the basic rate.

Ain't too sure about that one BHC. All sounds a bit resigned and defeatist to me. A huge underclass of 'has-beens' and 'could-have-beens' indeed! Lol! A sweeping generalisation, methinks.

I include "strugglers". An important distinction which I think encompasses all of those that are doing okay, but do feel the constant pressure (to publish, teach increased numbers or to justify not being cut as dead wood). Can you show me a single academic (non star) that doesnt have to put effort to keep their head above water?

Its odd, but I am not really defeatist. Its strangly validating in a darwinian way that I must be pretty good at what I do or I would have been canned.

I guess a lot of folks would like to be able to do research in a particular field, and some have to wait until they retire to do it. I spent a lot of time in the past doing research, but only the boss man got the credit, however I found the doing of it far more important to me than whose name was on the paper. Of course when it comes down to it any post must give you enough to live on, the whole of academia in some areas would probably collapse if it were not for those who can afford to take a low salary. However this is something to take up as a cause in itself without need for comparisons with the wages of others for whom there is less excitement(?)/ variety in their working life.

Have to say, I'm not sure if a lifetime of academic bondage is kinky enough for me Having said that, it's much better than the jobs I've had in the past, such as pot washer, telesales (breast cancer insurance salesman) and shirt presser. Suppose I'll have to take the rough with the smooth.