I'm not quite sure how you can deduce that Delta is not compassionate. What he is basically saying is that he treated his PhD as a 9-5 job that will open doors for him. What's wrong with that?

Probably nothing and I'm just being oversensitive.

:-)

It cost me £100,000 in lost earnings etc to do my PhD purely out of passion. Some here have really fought to overcome depression, and battles with supervisors, and are still fighting. To me the post read like a cynical brag, and a put-down for others. I felt very uncomfortable. But that may be my fault, and not the fault of the poster.:-)

I find myself agreeing with Delta. I love research, I like working on my own and deciding what to do myself, but I hate my research area, although I find it interesting, its not a strong passion of mine and I personally think you could have given me any subject and I would have researched it with the same motivation.

I think what I get from the original post is that it isn't true that you have to be passionate about the subject in order to get on and get it done.

I was told numerous times that the PhD would 'be a long hard journey' - and that it's impossible to finish in 3 years. I haven't. But I sometimes think if I hadn't had people telling me all about this journey and how hard it was, that actually I probably would have just got on and got it done without all these expectations that it has to be some huge soul-changing process.

Just to third (or fourth or fifth, I haven't counted) Delta, I'm doing a PhD in a general topic I have a real interest in but in a specific part that I have little interest in. I work 9-5 as well and feel I am doing as well as many others.

The trouble is that if people compare their PhD to someone else's PhDs, that is like comparing apples with oranges. Some require far more time, others require incredible leaps of genius and very little time, some require neither time nor genius and some require both (PhDs not apples and oranges).

The more I read these boards the more I feel that PhDs are actually very similar to "normal" jobs (hear me out on this!). Take the next few bullet points and replace job with PhD and I think they still work:

- Some people love their job and some hate their job
- Some people work long hours, others just do 9-5
- Some people do the job they always wanted to, others kind of "fell into it"
- Some people work for the job satisfaction others work purely for the reward
- Some people get very stressed by their jobs others are very laid back about it
- Some people can't hack their job and so change job, others stay in the same job for years
- Some people get on very well with their boss at their job others hate them with a passion.

etc, etc

My point is that we often compare our PhDs or say you have to have certain qualities to do a PhD, but actually that's a lot like saying you have to have certain qualities to do a general job! So if Delta or I don't have a massive interest in our PhDs then that doesn't mean that someone else is not allowed to and vice versa. Just because one person puts in extra hours all the time does not mean that everyone has to.

I'm not having a go at anyone via this, just pointing out the futility of comparing one's PhD with anothers. The grass often looks greener on the other side, that doesn't mean it is.

======= Date Modified 04 Jul 2011 15:07:30 =======

I think that may be true if you're getting paid to do it. I don't need passion to write, if I'm getting an advance, or writing on commission. Writing is a job like any other. BUT if you're not getting paid, you need passion, because you're actually losing quite a lot by putting yourself through the process. As I see it, if you're getting paid, no probs. But it was the assumption in the original post that everyone gets paid to do research. Just not true. Some do it just because..... Not many, though.

Actually, the irony here is the detachment you felt probably got you through without the stresses that many of us put ourselves through.  You were able to walk away, put it to the back of your mind and not find yourself stressing about it, say, when in the middle of a night out with your mates!!!

Redundancy and the threat of dole was on the distant horizon when I decided to go for my PhD and sure enough, some time after I left my former employer closed down.  However, if I'd not wanted to do a PhD then I would have looked fro another job whilst still in the last.  I wanted to do one, I wanted the challenge and I wanted to chance to do some cutting edge research.

Both family and friends had their doubts about what I was doing and my mum expressed her concern about me giving up a full time job.  Her concern was a genuine one, however, she understood how much I wanted to do one and supported me all the way.

One of my mates, even during the latter stages of the writing up stage intimated that he thought the best thing for future employability was to put the PhD on ice whilst I learnt to drive (I still can't).  He was not happy about me being a student again and the full reasons never became clear, though I think his mindset was one of everyone should be in a 9 to 5 job and on a steady wage from when they left school to when they retired.  I did wonder if I thought I was being some sort of financial burden on the tax payer, one reason I didn't try to explain to him about EPSRC funding.  There was also an element of me continually bitching on about workload.

If that detachment means you can treat the PhD like a job and you can put it to one side as and when you feel, that has to be a good thing.  However, the drive a lot of us feel to gain a PhD means it's never very far from our thoughts.  We stress about it, we lose sleep over it, we become depressed about it especially as the pressure ramps up during write-up.  I would have loved to have gone home at a weekend and switched off, spent time with my friends and family, and not found myself switching on my home computer to work on it and find half the day had just disappeared.

However, I note your remark that you're not doing the PhD you wanted for the reasons you state.  Therefore, you did want to do one and you wanted to do research.  Also, you opted to do a PhD to avoid unemployment when there might have been other options to improve your employability (voluntary work, taking alternative work until you found something, etc.) and you're now still there as the PhD draws to a close.  Are you sure you're as dispassionate about your PhD as you say?

Very soon, you'll have to decide on what happens next.  I think the fact you've got through shows perhaps you're more committed to the process than you believe as PhDs are serious tests of character.  If you are really not committed to what you are doing, that suggests you've some sort of knack or talent we'd all love to have.

These are just my thoughts on your posts and I might be a million miles wrong.  Either way, I hope you finally get to work on the subject you're most interested in, whether that be post-doc or in the real world (be prepared for the over qualified tag in looking for work).  If this is what you're capable of when you're not committed to what you're doing, what you'll achieve when you are committed I'd love to see.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

(up)

I could relate to Delta's post as well, not for my part-time history PhD which I finished, but for my husband's full-time PhD and my first go, both full-time and computer science, before I had to stop mine when the progressive neurological disease struck.

We both fell into our full-time PhD topics a bit by accident. We enjoyed the intellectual challenge, but neither of us would have stayed in those research areas long-term in the future. We treated our full-time PhDs as 9-5 jobs, and had a good quality of life as a result. I strongly believe that a PHD can be done in this way. If you are taking all hours to do it then there's either something wrong with the PhD, supervisor, you, or a mix of all three!

My part-time history PhD was more of a challenge though, and if I hadn't had a huge passion for that subject I don't think I would have got through. I defined my own research project in that PhD, and applied for funding in my second year, and got it, on a part-time basis, initially covering my fees only. Often I wanted to quit. I was really struggling as my disease progressed and the cognitive problems from the brain damage worsened. But I hung on in there. The passion helped.

But that doesn't lessen Delta's argument. And I didn't find Delta's comments at all uncompassionate either. Just an honest comment about the realities for many PhD students.

======= Date Modified 04 Jul 2011 15:18:50 =======

Spot on!

I have stacks of voluntary work on my CV, had applied for many different types of jobs but with no success (I'm reluctant to keep moving and so limit myself to certain locations and there is another reason which I can't go into as to why I find it difficult to secure employment and no I don't have a criminal record).

It may be helpful if I place my post in context. I always wanted to do a PhD but in a certain area. It is an area where research is needed (I was able to evidence this in a proposal). Year after year I kept try to secure funding and a supervisor (I could never get both together) and was always told to keep trying as it would happen eventually. I would never fund a PhD as I funded an expensive masters and didn't get the return I expected on the investment (it actually put people off employing me as I appeared over qualified) and hence the debt.

Anyway, one year I thought I'd cracked it and got funding and a supervisor. Sadly, and after some investigation on my part, it became clear I wasn't going to get funding but the department I applied to do the PhD with wouldn't officially confirm this. I still don't know why. Anyhow, that potential supervisor was fantastic and put me on the right track. They advised me to do a funded PhD (they pointed out the advantages and disadvantages of self-funding and in line with my own thoughts tried to steer me away from self-funding) and I indicated that I had been offered a funded PhD in another area which was of little interest and I certainly had no passion for. I was advised to grab it, get my head down and complete it. I expressed concern that I would be defined by this PhD and they made the point that times had changed and this was no longer the case as people very often move on to pursue other research interests. They also made a good point that it would be a move in the right direction and I would be working towards something as opposed to doing nothing. In my opinion, this person talked complete sense. Others had kept wishing me well and telling me to keep on trying, indicating that a PhD was hard work but I clearly had a passion for my topic and this would be win through eventually.

The point I'm making is you don't necessarily need passion to complete a PhD. I think you do need to have a reason for doing a PhD and need to be prepared to work very hard. I just wish I'd had that talk with the potential supervisor a few years earlier as listening to others saying passion is necessary in order to see you though was, looking back, not helpful to me. I delayed doing a PhD on the back of it because I thought I wouldn’t be able to stick it out because I wouldn’t have the ‘passion’ for it.

We are all different as are our experiences. Some people will only be able to stick with a PhD because of their overall passion for the topic. For me, it vastly improved my quality of life and I’m not as deeply distressed as I was three years ago due to debt and unemployment. The point I really would like to make is I wouldn’t like someone to turn down a funded PhD opportunity because they think they’ll eventually get a funded PhD in their area as it may never happen. Sometimes, with the best of intentions, I read posts on here advising people not to do a PhD unless they have a passion for the topic. I believe, for the most part, that the characteristics of the person doing the PhD will determine its success or failure. Again, it’s not cut and dried as supervisors do have a role to play.

To be continued...

I didn’t mean to come across as bragging nor was I attempting to put down others. I genuinely feel for people who self-fund as it makes a difficult path much more stressful I would imagine. Having looked at the job market over the last three years I do feel a real sense of relief that I didn’t self-fund as I’d be even more despairing now than three years ago.

Having read and communicated via previous posts, I don't think Delta is bragging or putting others down. That said I completely take Beajay's point that perhaps those of us who are more detached from our topics (myself included) are more than likely fortunate enought to be funded as this is a luxury self-funders do not have. Or perhaps regardless of topic, those who self-fund are passionate about their PhD, the idea of contributing to knowledge etc.

I have found the PhD experience to be pretty relentless and quite debilitating from a confidence point of view so I would disagree with Delta there. As I head out of this PhD I am trying to sell the efficient project management aspect, acquisition of transferrable skills etc to would-be employers - completely without success thus far! I feel like I am highly qualified - for nothing :-(

Maybe the title of the thread stirred things up a bit. What about "Sorry but it is not always true..." might sit better with a wider audience?

That's what I meant to put - thanks Ady!

Ady, you can only keep trying. We are in really, really difficult times and so we are competing against many for jobs. Certainly more than we would normally expect.

======= Date Modified 04 Jul 2011 20:54:07 =======
Your post now starts to make sense after your lengthy explanation!
I don't do whinge - not big time - so I'm deleting the miserable story of my PhD life, and just leaving you with a quote:
Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait.

Lots of :-)

No problem Beajay. Even before your last post I could see your point and did and do feel for you. My respect goes to anyone who undertakes a PhD but I admire even more those who self-fund as that requires putting a lot on the line and holds no guarantees. As it happens the last line of my initial post does sound selfish as I was fortunate to get funding and so I fully understand your frustration.

Doing a PhD in something you are not interested in isn't that unusual or terrible, isn't a PhD simply a driving licence to do more research? Having passed your test and got your licence now you're free to indulge your passions. When I first learnt to drive it was in a rubbish car a mark 2 cortina, nowadays I drive something I love an Alpha Romeo but I couldn't do that without my licence. X

Very well put! Have a well deserved star (up)