Guitarman, I dont think ANYONE joins academia for the money. There are well to do academics (theose who straddle academia and policy and interface with industry) and there are salaried academics. Even within academia there are rungs. And more generally, there are a million different careers in the world from driving trucks to writing textbooks, and rank ordered by potential money, something is always top and something bottom. Similarly I think we all agree that money is an importnt factor in choosing a career, though not an all important factor. So mostly all students on this forum could potentially have joined offices, made careers as sellers or anything else but for some reason joined academia, after weighing out numerous factors. Love for the topic or subject could be one thign, the other could be the prefernece to lead an academic life, or an inclination to be a scholar, which I think is a much more important choice than just love for the subject.

I am intending to straggle the academic-industry divide purely because academic pay in the UK is abysmal with the cost of living. Most of the people I know who have done PhDs have moved successfully into very good private sector jobs, and very few have remained in academia (despite our PhD being the standard academic type). Those who remain in academia will supplement their income with private work.

The whole postdoc regimes seems very unfair to me - in my field we don't have postdocs but move straight into a lecturer post.

I support the argument to introduce a market economy into academia where academic salaries are more reflective of one's counterparts in the private sector.

I totally understand some people completely love academic research! No problem whatsoever - I hope they're happy :) It just isn't for me.. There just aren't enough postdoc/lecture posts available, also, IMO. It's like the government's target to get 50% of the population gaining degrees - completely useless. If we all study to be managers then who will there be to do the actual work? Sorry... I almost started a rant on economics but that would go on for pages and pages...!!

======= Date Modified 21 May 2009 00:39:49 =======
I know this isn’t going to be popular but here goes…

Academic careers are NOT poorly paid! This is a myth which has been bandied around so much that everyone seems to believe it without ever questioning it or researching it for themselves.

From the Times Higher Education March 2009:

“Figures collected by the HESA (Higher Education Statistics Agency) show that UK academics on average earned a healthy £43,486 a year in 2007-08. [Recent wage rises] put academics ahead of some of their professional counterparts …Professors on average took home more than lawyers and solicitors, and lecturers more than quantity surveyors or secondary school teachers. Researchers took home an average of £31,915, up from £30,161 in 2006-07.

Moreover, academics also see the additional benefit of around 35 days’ annual leave and a final salary pension scheme.”

To put academic pay into perspective the average wage in the UK is around £23,000 a year. Working for the minimum wage would get you around £11,750 a year.

The belief that academics are “poorly paid” I find borderline offensive. People doing hard physical jobs with unsociable shift patterns for the minimum wage are poorly paid. Academics aren’t. Also, the belief that people on this thread think they could make more as a bus driver (average salary £18,500) shows how widespread the myth of academic poor pay is. Even police officers (on an average salary £34,000) earns less than the average academic salary of £43,486.

It is an absolute myth that people in other sectors make loads of money while poor academics have to make do on poverty salaries. Look at the facts – it is simply not true!

Obviously there are many jobs which pay more than academia, and many people who have left academia and made much more money elsewhere, I am not denying this at all. All I am pointing out (and I am trying to put a different point across in this debate, not start an argument/attack on anyone) is that academia is a field of work which is rewarding and fulfilling, work in a nice, comfortable environment and get a salary that is above the national average. Doesn’t sound too bad to me.

Very well put, XJR. Blimey, if it's something you really enjoy and you're getting paid well above the minimum wage, then how can you complain?

======= Date Modified 21 May 2009 04:05:01 =======
I have to agree and disagree with you XJR. In absolute terms, certainly academics are well-paid i.e. compared to bus drivers, factory shift-workers etc., but if we take the reasoning its logical conclusion - we can equally say that no UK worker has any right to complain about their pay compared to workers in say Sub-Saharan Africa. In relative terms i.e. comparing academic pay to that of our professional counter-parts, academic pay is for the most part poor.

You quote "Professors on average took home more than lawyers and solicitors" but this something of a strawman argument....of course professors (the top layer of the academic profession) will fair well compared to the 'lawyers and solicitors' as a collective whole, but let's take a more realistic professional comparison e.g. a professor versus a law partner or QC, or an senior lecturer versus a 5 yr PQE solicitor....suddenly salary differences become very apparent.

The Times Higher quote also raises the issue that academics have 35 days leave, but what about the hours an average academic works? I would bet good money that academics have some of the longest working weeks compared to other professional sectors, and any liberal holiday leave policy is totally wiped out by longer hours worked. Most professions have some sort of policy regarding working hours eg. paying overtime, time in lieu or a bonus scheme, but academics are expected to work consistently long hours without any additional remuneration. Another issue is benefits-in-kind - academics don't really get any - whereas their counterparts in the private sector will have a list of perks, most prominently health insurance.

An average academic who thinks they're getting a good pay deal is lying to themself, because they simply are not - for the time and investment in their careers (and opportunity lost) they are not well rewarded.

As you say XJR, in absolute terms, academics don't get crap pay and there is no justification for academics whining about being on the poverty line, but in many disciplines academics are poorly paid in relative terms compared to their civil service or private sector counterparts. And I'm afraid there are facts that do reflect this poor pay....we only need to consider the UK brain drain, or fact some departments have recruit over 50% of non-UK national staff (there is nothing wrong with this, but it reflects the fact that uni's cannot get UK applicants because they've gone elsewhere), and let's not forget the strike actions over recent years.

As said before, one goes into academia for the love of it.


(Sry long rant!!)

Missspacey, I think you hit the nail on the head. Just to add, this is also about (1) the number of qualifications you require for each job/ amount of years spent in education and (2) the amount of debt that often entails....

what a joke! look how many permanent members of staff each department has - maybe a handful, the vast majority are postdocs! once i get a permanent position, i will surely not complain about the pay (because THEN the advantages are many - secure job, decent pay, lots of traveling etc), but lets face it, the average academic is NOT a permanent member of staff.
friends of mine went through 3-4 postdoc positions in different countries before they finally found something permanent.

wow - I'm a bit confused. My studentship gives me £13,000, I thought that was standard from research councils, all postdocs I've seen pay £25,000 plus. Dont want to sound too much like I spent my formative years down the mine, but if I get a postdoc I will be extremely wealthy compared to my school mates. Having spent many years in hellish minimum wage (and less than minimum wage) jobs I for one am grateful that not only will I have enough money to support myself and my family, I will also be doing something I love. Job enjoyment is unheard of for people of my background. I certainly count myself lucky. Maybe its different in other disciplines, but in mine the jump from phd to postdoc is huge.