I like this especially the title - it'll definitely get to No 1!!! Maybe even the (robin) (snowman (tree) No 1!!! ;-)(up)

I can relate to how you are feeling as I had a difficult time too during my lab work stage and felt isolated which was not helped by a supervisor that is similar to yours. What I found very useful was talking to friends who went through it with their supervisors and the same situation at other uinis. It's only then that you begin to realise that it's not just happening to you and that other people suffer too. Of course I wouldn't wish a bad supervisor on anyone but the best way of dealing with one is to talk about it with friends that understand and have been in the same situation and in that way you can both help each other. It provided entertainment as you can see how ridiculous the supervisors are and no matter where you are the issues are still the same. It really helped me keep my sanity - and it's only then when you realise how many awful supervisors there are and how inept they really are!!! You need to get it off your chest. People with normal decent supervisors just don't understand!!!

PhDs by their nature are very isolating as I had this idea that it would be just a light hearted fun atmosphere with everybody working together before I started. However I found this was not the case as PhD students are a very insecure bunch as I think the stress of doing one brings out the worse in most people which shows through people's insecurities and the way they sometimes act. It's a big deal to get to do one so most people feel like really insecure I think and unsure of themselves, what they are supposed to be doing as you are left alone to get on with it so there is a lot of tension around that you can just feel in the atmosphere which doesn't create a good working environment. There is jealousy around as people often have to fight for their slice of the pie (the size dependent on where they are in the pecking order) so will guard it well. Who says academia isn't competitive????

As you have done all the experimental work you've done the hard part so you don't need to go back to the lab so you can find somewhere away from uni to work. I found this also helped as I felt more relaxed being out of the situation and actually got alot done. As you have even published you're well on your well there. Do your publications count as part of your thesis or are they separate?

And remember to take time out to chill out and relax as you can't work all of the time. Make time to do things you like and enjoy and get away from it all - though I know the guilt you feel when you not doing your it but remember you've earned your break so you can go back to writing refreshed. I am sure your husband will agree too.

All in all remember that you're not alone in all this and talking to other people helps especially people who have been through it. Talking on this forum also helps as you can also see that many people have problems too. Some just manage to hide it better than others but here it doesn't matter as it's anonymous.

As for you supervisor refusing to read your work - it happens and it's their loss!! Is there another supervisor you could ask or another academic in the dept who is willing to help. With awful supervisors other people are often willing to help as they know what the person is like. Just remember when you get that PhD it's because of your hard wrok and determination which will really show your supervisor up!!!

Good luck - hang in there and you'll be okay!!! Just remember your supervisor is the one with the problems and the others are probably just as insecure as you. Just had a thought - what about doing outside hobbies so you are not stuck indoors facing your thesis all the time which is demoralising. You need to get out and do different stuff. If you join a group with similar interests as you that'll give you a common thing to talk about.

(up) You can do it and let us know how you get on. :p

That's good news - hopefully it'll keep the momentum going!!!  It sounds like you've got a good supervisor if they are excitable about your work. Whether it continues or not depends on many things, eg. your relationship with your supervisor, their personality and whether they are in it for the long run.  This is a tough one as I know some supervisors who are great and take an interest in their students' work and will always be there to help and even help others who ask for their help. These are truly gems and a wonderful find - what you look for in a supervisor. 

On the other hard there is the other kind of supervisor where it all goes downhill after a while - you get to see their true nature and that's it! Some refer to this as the end of the honeymoon period (e.g. 6 months settling in period) when they start to get tetchy and demand results and ask why you haven't done all these things as you've been reading, spending most your time in the lab, getting up to speed with your topic, attending lectures etc... and generally more hassle that it's worth. 

Of course there is the in between kind of supervisor which is more common than the first kind and there are a surprising number of the second kind of characters so it's hard to tell.

My first meeting went well - it was very informal and the supervisor was even helpful on the first day!!!! 

Hope this helps. It seems you have the type of supervisor that is really into it as I've never had such a long meeting with my supervisor.  40 mins I think was the longest and that was a rare occasion.

Good luck (up) ;-)

I am in the same boat but strangely my motivation is not quite here - I think it'll be ok as soon as I finish this chapter which has been killing me!! I've almost finished redoing it and then I've got a few more chapters to fix. Hopefully it'll come together!! I think I should be more stressed as I have to keep reminding myself of the deadline but somehow it seems more fun here!!! I am having worries about my viva however such as wondering if it'll be good enough and what I'll do if it's not!! It's really too late to worry about that now but that seems more real to me than actually finishing and handing it in for some weird reason!!

Anyway I must get going as I won't get a viva if I don't hand something in!!!! :-s

Hi Cellardoor, I think it depends on many things whether you finish in 3 years or not.  I think this is a real area of division between non-science and science subjects as it is possible in non-science PhDs where there is no lab work involved as so many things can go wrong that really hold up your progress. This is understood within the science world as their PhDs rarely finish within 3 years even with the best of intentions and smooth labwork as the analysis is also very involved and painstaking!!  In subjects such as humanities where people base their thesis on ideas and theories with case studies or interviews/questionnaires it is possible to finish within the 3 years.

The amount of help and supervision is also crucial to your progression. Needless to say the more help and support you get the easier it is to finish.  You are allowed a 4th year but it is unfunded in most cases. The reason that your supervisor wants you to finish in 3 years is that it looks good for the dept/uni and him/herself if you finish within the time limit.  Of course as everything is about rating and output if you finish within 4 years the dept can use your thesis as output in the RAE or its replacement - a PhD needs to be completed within 4 years for it to count.

Taking courses in your first year is pretty standard as it helps you settle in and get you upto to speed on the topic area etc... Most people don't have to take exams - that'd just be tough. 

If you can start to gather your thoughts it would be good to get them on paper and think of it as doing the leg work for your thesis. Your ideas probably will change or develop as you progress through your research so don't worry if you don't recognise it if you read it months later.  The old saying is that the more you read the easier it is to write is true though I found it easier to read and write once I had got hold of all my results and figured out what they mean.

I hope this helps and good luck with it all.  It's ok to feel totally lost esp at the start as it takes a while to settle in and for the novelty to wear off!!

(up)

I know how you feel as I have a similar problem writing my thesis as everything takes so much longer than you think and it's hard to get into it sometimes.  It must be really tough for you to be in a full time job and then to come home to try and work is really difficult to focus. 

As for trying to get an extension - have you a postgrad tutor or will your supervisor speak on your behalf to get the head of dept to agree to an extension.  If you explain your circumstances and propose a realistic timetable of when you'll finish they might be more inclined to grant you an extension. It's in both your interests that you finish but you have to show them that you are nearly there and just need a bit more time. 

I would agree with the last post that if you don't submit if you can't get an extension you might not get anything - I would suggest checking your uni regulations too.  Have you asked your postgrad tutor what your options are?  Maybe you could submit and then get a MPhil if they don't think it's up to PhD standard - e.g. if you haven't got enough results or analysis or maybe you could get major revisions which will give you more time to finish as it would be a shame if you've come this far and not to get anything.

The main thing is to talk to somebody about where you stand and check what your options are.  It's tough but I hope everything works out.  Good luck

(up)

I am relieved that somebody has the same worries as I do.  I am thinking about the future too as the end is insight and I would love to get a postdoc however they are in short supply at the moment. Well most of the time so when a position comes up it's very competitive!  So how does one secure a position as even if you do get to the interview stage you find out that everybody has already done a postdoc so you don't really have much of a chance as you don't have enough experience. How do you get past this stage as surely everybody needs to start off someone after finishing their thesis?  I know some people are very lucky and they get a position through their supervisor or write proposals with other academics but I have never been good at networking so have not much chance of landing a position that way. Has anyone any suggestions of what I can do to get a postdoc?  I'm told publications and patience is essential but how long does it take? I need to get a move on and get a job but I would like to be able to use my skills and I really enjoy research I think a postdoc will be an ideal job as I want to stay in academia.  I have been thinking about other possibilities but I am worried if I go outside of academia I may not be as competitive as someone who has stayed inside of academia. I also tend to find that it is quite cliquey so you have to maintain links and be with the "in crowd" to stand a chance.  Ay suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Yeah academia is unfortunately full of insecure people who take it out on other people in the weirdest of ways. There are also a lot of egos about who like to think they are better than other people and so entitled to be in such a position. I think it's partly to do with the insecure nature of the job esp for post docs and the intense competition you have to really keep an eye out. But it makes for a horrible and really uncomfortable working environment. If everybody sees what this postdoc is like they'll soon be wary of him and he wouldn't have anymore "allies." Good luck and I really hope the situation improves. (up)

Yeah this sort of thing is common as alot of the time supervisors seem to get away with it and there is nothing you can do about it! It doesn't cost them anything to be human but many can't even manage that! What is worse is that it is swept under the carpet and the dept just puts up with it and it's your problem that your supervisor is sooo inadequate and incapable of supervising! Sorry this post isn't much help. But at least you know you're not alone!

Have you an independent person who oversees your research project so they can intervene on your behalf or sort out any supervisory issues?  Or a postgrad tutor who looks out for your interests? Unfortunately it's all too common to have supervisors who don't care or even interested in their students' research - you do wonder why they accepted them in the first place and is a very frustrating position to be in! Generally when supervisors reach a senior position they seem to get away with anything and students seem to be ignored.  It's ingrained in the system as many supervisors are employed for research and not their supervisory skills (indeed many of them lack social skills!) so they get away with alot. I'd suggest talking with someone in your department who is in a position to help and see where you stand as sometimes they may need a reason for you to switch supervisors (this depends on the politics of your dept and how student focused they are!)  Some head of depts just seem to decide things which are quite crucial to students but they don't get a say in these things!  

Research councils only give money and take no part in deciding the student or their welfare.  But having said that it is prestigious to get research council grants so the dept will do everything they can to keep you so you have that in your favour - sorry to be so direct about it but students are generally viewed as a number and output (i.e. completion rates!!!) It does the dept more harm if you don't complete so they will do everything to keep you.  Just wondering if your funding is tied to your supervisor (i.e. for a specific project) or a general grant which I think would be the case from what you said. Having 4 supervisors does seem a bit excessive especially as they didn't seem to tell you.  They were really harsh at your upgrade meeting.  Can you do what they asked for you to pass the upgrade? Generally if they were that harsh it's usually them if you've researched your project well - i.e. you may have disagreed with some of their research as some supervisors like to protect their "status quo" esp if they have been in research a long time and don't like people challenging their position. It's kind of ironic as this what research is all about and generates new ideas! 

Keep a written record of everything so that you can use it as evidence to strengthen your case if you want to change supervisor as supervisors never change. It's an awful position to be in but you need to believe you can do it and pass the upgrade (do whatever it takes) and then get even!!! One more thing - are your supervisors generally known for their lack of support as it might help in your case - it depends on the politics of your dept again. Alot of this depends on that and the power structure. Keep going and I hope you get something sorted! A PhD is hard enough without having supervisory problems which just doesn't help and bad for your health too! I think they've forgotten what it's like to do one and all the stress and uncertainty that goes with it! Good luck!

Congrats - excellent news! The future looks good!! May the good times keep rolling ... (up)

Hi Maddie,

I don't think they can throw your mum out as such - I think a lot of it is just threats as it looks bad for the dept to lose students - i.e students who don't complete their PhDs for whatever reason and those who go over the allocated time of 4 yrs full time so that would make it 8 years part time. I'm including the writing up year that you are allowed to have at the end of your 3 years. The reason why depts get so worked up about such matters is due to numbers as they want to show they have X no of students who finish within 4 yrs for it to count towards the Research Assessment Excercise which they do every 5/6 yrs to assess how good the dept is in terms of research which in turn influences how much funding they get!! It's quite sad that you are reduced to a number! The best thing for your mum to do is to clarify with the uni's research office/academic registry or equivalent what the situation/rules are regarding submission. Most unis do not see this as a problem as people often need extensions for various reasons and they would rather have a completed PhD rather than a non-complteted one especially if they are aware of personal cirumstances. There is a lot of politics going on and supervisors like to think they have more power than they do and the unfortunate students often get in the way! Good luck.

Just explain it to her and she'll understand as a PhD isn't for everyone and not very useful if you work for a private firm. You gave it a shot and it didn't work out - you could say your priorities have changed and you realise that this isn't for you and you want to refocus your efforts and thank her for time etc... You could turn your work so far into an MPhil and that way you still get something out of the last two years. Good luck.

It seems my post was too long so here is the rest of it ...

Perhaps if we made more effort to break down what we do for the general public and media they might be more interested. It would be nice to get some recognition for all the hard we do especially from our supervisors and our peers which doesn’t really happen very often. The public can't recognise what we do as they don't understand what we do - a PhD what is that good for? The jury is still out on that one! ;-)

Anyway I hope this helps in some way, sorry it has turned into an essay and does repeat what some of the others have said. Doing a PhD is a rollercoaster of emotions so you are constantly battling with your inner demons and no one’s project ever goes to plan which adds to the stress of it all which can be very overwhelming! Posting on this forum is a good way to get it out of the way and gets people talking! :-) And you never know you may get fame here - and then the media next! Good luck with it all! We do live in a celebrity culture although academia seems quite sheltered from it so far!

Hi Eueu it's a very interesting post and thanks for the discussion it has provided. I know what you mean about difficulty in making friends in your dept because you expect it not to be hard to make friends with your peers especially if you've never had trouble before. It's very unnerving and can affect you in many ways but you can make friends when/where you least expect to and not necessary in your dept although if you did that would make things more pleasant and easier! I think age can come into it but more importantly you make friends based on shared interests/viewpoints/experiences or some characteristics you admire/respect to name a few reasons. Sometimes you can be really different but hit it off immediately or vaguely know somebody but manage to build up a friendship more easily with than with people you see every day! If there is a huge gap between you and the 30 + yr olds maybe it's because they perceive you as a lot younger than them and don't think they have anything in common with you. Maybe you could try finding some common ground between you and them. I know people who are able to make friends with people almost twice their age/half their age as they have something in common (definitely not their age - excuse the pun!) ;-)

Doing a PhD is by nature a very isolating and lonely process so if you don't have a support network especially in a new place this will make you feel even more alienated! A good suggestion is to get involved with outside activities if time permits and keep up your support network at home or wherever your friends are as they will be vital to helping you through. However as somebody has already mentioned in this post don't expect them to understand what you do so it's best not to moan to a non PhDer about your PhD problems as they won't understand and may frustrate you even more! Also to bear in mind that PhDers are strange creatures with lots of insecurities (some hide it better than others) so as the old cliché goes - academics are weird and very socially inept I'm afraid!!! :p

You are as old as you feel but it's difficult to be reminded all the time that you are of a different age to the others especially if you are aware of it already! There are advantages to doing a PhD early in that you have a long time to accomplish something as people have already mentioned to you! Think of it as a head start to the PhDers who started later, however it is usually easier for them to focus and adjust to the mindset of doing a PhD. As all PhDers know that can take sometime!

Unfortunately you've got it right - nobody really cares about what we do! Friends who have been through the system usually take more of an interest than non-academic friends and family who don't know what you do or understand what you do! I remember someone once said to me "What you only want to be a lecturer!" as if it was the worse job in the world with no prospects! Ideally I'd be content with just doing research but it usually involves a lectureship eventually! I should really aim higher ;-) and this person had been to uni and is a nice person! It says a lot really about what people think of academics! Or maybe this person knows something I don't!

I think it is due to the fact that you can’t see the immediate impact/benefit of what we do so people just think we do it to 1) avoid a “real” job 2) just to stay at uni 3) we have nothing better to do (see point 1) etc... Most people do not know or understand what we do. It’s funny seeing the reactions of people when I tell them what I do – some people think I’m joking and others then ask totally unrelated questions about it or make totally unrelated wise cracks! It’s something you have to get used to I’m afraid! I used to be full of enthusiasm about telling people and then you realise that people aren’t interested and switch off!

As for the media I can’t help you there – I have no experience of