Overview of Dunham on PostgraduateForum.com

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Signup date: 19 Apr 2015 at 2:12pm

Last login: 10 Jun 2018 at 7:25am

Post count: 303

Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From Timmy:

Why consign her to the dustbin when she can still get what she wants?

A permanent challenging position in academia after 4 years out of science in that certain part of the UK where she lives? I doubt it. But I am pretty sure that she can find a decent job at a company but as others already said, this probably won't be the position she wanted to have.

Quote From MrDoctor:
I respectfully disagree.

Yes we can regret spending the money, spend the 3 years (or longer), and the stress. That's fine to regret that.

I still maintain, however, that personal and professional skills will never be taken away from you post-PhD. It's not a case of polishing a turd, if you'll excuse the expression. I just can't envisage ever seeing my PhD skills/experience as a negative thing.

There is a difference between "negative" and "useless". Experiences and skills are always great, but if I'm not using them then I could easily live without them. Living on the street would maybe also teach me a lot and would change my perspective. Almost everything you do results in experiences that are valuable in one way or another.

I am pretty sure she will see it more positive when she finally finds a well paid job but so far the PhD was rather a disadvantage, which is of course frustrating and a justified reason to regret the decision to start a PhD. It would be completely lunatic to not consider that as a wrong life choice. It's just human to think like that.

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From MrDoctor:

Quote From kathryn15:
[quote] my PhD was a total waste of time, effort and money. .

This is never, ever, EVER the case.

A PhD provides you with an absolute plethora of life skills which any employer would be gagging for, in my opinion.

Stop seeing a PhD as an academic qualification, and more as a set of amazing skills which you can take into any interview.

No shame in admitting you did a PhD because you had a passion for the subject, but now you've decided to utilise these skills elsewhere in forging a new career.

A PhD will NEVER be useless. Ever.

Come on.... I get that you want to encourage and support but this statement is just silly.

She didn't decide to use the skills elsewhere, she is forced to. Why do people always have to roll everything in glitter and sell every failure as an success? I have the feeling that some people have to tell themselves that it is never useless because it is simply hard to accept that you didn't need the PhD for the job you have. A way to justify all the hard work even though it did not lead to a job you wanted. Most people don't pursue a PhD for the PhD's sake but because they want to work as scientists. I fully understand that one is bitter if that doesn't work out after all the sacrifice and hard work. I would feel the exact same way. She took the risk and it didn't work. That's bitter, but that's how it is. Nothing to be ashamed of. Now you can only try to do some damage limitation. Life skills don't pay the mortgage or piano lessons.

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

I think it is not uncommon that people wait with the submission until the deadline, even though they sometimes probably finished a bit earlier. Maybe you fear that you forgot something, while doing the corrections, maybe you want to proofread it multiple times with some time in between and so on.

I wouldn't worry so much. If you have 6 months, you have 6 months, no need for explanations or excuses. Good luck !

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From Huxley:
You might want to google Patrick Moore, Isaac Newton etc regarding their autodidactic contributions to natural science... also your point is unsound as obviously Mr Doctor managed to get data during his PhD, as already mentioned.

Yeah Isaac Newton. Too bad it is not 1600 anymore and too bad not everyone is working in theoretical fields. Of course she managed to get data, otherwise she would have failed her PhD. However, there is still time besides a full-time job and probably not a shitload of data that is left.

Anyway, I will stop this here as you obviously just try to piss me off :)

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From Huxley:
There's a lot you don't know Dunham. Some people find it easy to publish before they even start a PhD.

Apparently not in natural sciences, where you need a lab to create some data that you can publish ;) Nice if it works like that in other fields.

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From Huxley:
Teaching. Money is worthless.

Strongly disagree with that (if it was serious and the intention wasn't sarcasm) ;)

If you already have 4 years of teaching experience, this is nothing to worry about. Your publication record and NOT teaching experience is getting you a permanent position in the end. I am not from the UK but I don't believe it is that much different to other European countries. More teaching is of course nice to have, but probably does not enhance your chances.

I see it like bewildered.
1. Teaching is a rather "useless" qualification in terms of industry jobs and even though you are not planning to join a company, you are maybe forced to do so in the future. The odds are pretty bad to land a job in academia. There are enough people who focused too much on that and now desperately try to get in a company and out of low paid part-time teaching jobs or even long-term unemployment. Admin job can give you some experience that is actually valuable for a company (and probably for a university too).

2. Might be a personal thing, but I would not want to live on my partners salary and put all the pressure on him/her if there is an easy way to earn 3-times as much money as with the teaching job. I would definitely have a bad conscience if he/she finances me almost completely for a longer period. Even if he/she says that this is no problem....

PS : Not sure what field you are in but how do you publish without doing active research? Do you have so much data from your PhD left or how does it work?

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From windowsill:
i can understand kathryn, at some point in your life you reach a stage where you'd had enough of kissing ass, even the elaborate forms as faking a job interview. you start getting interested in some quality of life, like mortgage and permanent contracts and not wanting to display 'flexibility' i.e. moving country on some arbitrary person's whim just for the sake for a job. you'd just want to be a normal person doing a normal job alined to your qualifications and getting an ok compensation without going through all the additional brainfuck. that's it. why should you have to put up with all the additional hassle. and i agree with her that plenty people sail through life like that. what of all the oxbridge ponces getting it all served on a plate despite some being distinctly mediocre. somehow no one gives them advice on how to be more 'bubbly'. there's selling your soul and there's wanting to have some dignity. those who are inclined to the latter will continue to get told they have to kiss ass/be bubbly because this is the way to do it, apparently, and it's us having the wrong 'attitude'.
in addition, the uk is fairly anti-intellectual. also something one shouldn't say too loud. hence the suspicion towards phds; it being a low-wage economy doesn't help. the british don't know what to do with their educated people, it's not that it's too many with them. there's a lack of phantasy and political will to find employment possibilities for higher educated folks. look at all the wonderful quality of life that could come out of that. but no, can't have that.
however, being a foreigner, i will 'bugger off' to my own country where you still can get a lousy job without having to have 3 references and a criminal record check. i mean really. there are alternatives. i have had no problems finding very good jobs in other continental countries with my 'attitude'. here: zero.

What you say is maybe true but let's be honest, it is "as advertised". Everybody knows about these conditions and it has been at least the last 20 years like this. People just tend to ignore negative aspects and are optimistic about the future and if it then turns out to be as bad as everyone told, we start to complain about it ;)

I disagree about a lack of fantasy. It is not the job of government or industry to come up with employment possibilities. That can't be the answer to an oversupply of scientists. Just compare how many people pursue a PhD today and compare it with the 1990s or 2000. There is a constant increase.

And it is not UK specific. It is literally everywhere difficult to find a job as a post doc. However, most people find something in the end....even if it takes them 1 year of search...

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From kathryn15:

Quote From Montanita:
I was wondering if you have tried to apply for jobs in other countries? .

This has been suggested to me before - as a British PhD I would have more value in other countries such as China, Africa and the Middle East. But why should I have to leave my country to get a job? Non-PhDs don't have to leave their country to find work. There are many qualified professionals working right here - dentists, lawyers, headmasters, bankers, computer programmers - why should I have to leave my country just because I have a PhD? I find it bizarre that other professions want to come to this country for job opportunities but PhDs need to leave the country for job opportunities. Why can't there be sufficient opportunities for educated people here? Do we value PhDs so little in the UK?

To answer the question - no, I haven't applied for jobs in other countries as I have a mortgage on a house, a child in school and a husband who has a job here, and no desire to leave my home country.

I think it is reasonable that you want to stay in UK in your situation (especially if the options are china, africa or middle east... :D ), but to be honest, leaving the country is something that you have to expect if you want a position in academia. Flexibility is THE success factor in terms of academic positions, which is of course not easy if you want to have a family. Some are lucky and find something in their country, others not. It has been like that for ages. I guess for most people it is a question of "how bad do you want it?". It does not necessarily mean that you have to leave forever but at least a Post Doc abroad seems to be expected today.

There probably can't be a sufficient amount of positions for educated people as there is no need for so many educated people. Truth is, we educate too many PhD students. There was a nature article once where professors claimed you could cut up to 70% of PhD position and there would still be an oversupply. Out of academia you have not so many opportunities with a PhD (except in chemistry and biology, where it is often mandatory to have a PhD). I don't think that it is not valued but what to do with all those highly educated people if you simply don't need their know how? Who needs all these astrophysicists, geologists, virologists etc. outside of universities? With a PhD in computing you have at least something more applied and probably a chance to still find something attractive.

I would also suggest to work on soft skills or at least to learn how to act in job interviews so that people don't immediately assume that you are more an academic person. It is of course hard, but we all do it to a certain extent during an application.

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Sorry to hear that you struggle so much. Your situation is especially difficult as it's been so long that you finished your PhD without working in relevant fields in the meantime. Someone posted here that approximately 5% of the post docs will get a position as a lecturer. I think it is not multicultural staff, it's more that there are so many people that there is almost always someone "better". That's why I see it a bit critical that many people focus on teaching so much. Nice for academic positions, but qualifies for almost nothing else.

Your best chances are definitely in industry, even though it is hard in your situation. I am not sure what your PhD was exactly about but have you considered working as a freelancer to get back into business? Maybe that could be a way to get into a company later.

I think a lot of people can relate to your last statement. There are only a few fields were you really need a PhD outside of academia :/ Especially in humanities it is often more difficult to get into a company if you hold a PhD...

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From chickpea:
This does sound like a very precarious situation and it's not one I would be willing to go on with. What's his reason for telling you 'graphic' details? Is he getting a kick out of it? You say he becomes upset if you say the wrong thing, so it sounds like you're trying to tiptoe round him all the time. That's not a good basis for supervision. I'm afraid I'd have to find some way of telling someone about it or changing supervisor.

You are also putting yourself in a dangerous position by giving him advice on his marriage. Who's to say he won't take it out on you when it all goes pear shaped? If I was in your position, I would insist to him that it is not my place to give advice and that he needs to see a professional counsellor about his marriage.

Probably telling her about affairs to show that other women are interested in him, probably talks about the bad marriage to communicate that she would not destroy anything if she would get engaged in an affair, probably tells her that she is the only one he could talk to to create some intimacy or sympathy....
He doesn't respect anything, he just changed his strategy. Obviously it is working pretty well, as he is a super nice guy and just a little flawed when it comes to women ;)

If I were you, I would gather some evidence like messages or maybe even record some conversations. Stop talking to him about personal stuff because this will redound upon you if this blows up at some point in the future. How would anyone believe you tried to keep it professional if you discuss marriage issues with him? It is of course a complicated situation but in my opinion you are not in his mercy at all. If you have some evidence and report him, he is absolutely done. No university can accept such a staff member and sexual harassment is serious. He will probably try that with the next girl in his group too and maybe she will cope with this worse than you do...

PS : A nice guy would NEVER get you in a situation like this, if you told him that it makes you uncomfortable and that you want to keep it professional. It rather seems that he lulled you in ;) No offense.

Hope you take some advice and act for your own good.

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From alaahosny:
Thanks a lot for your answer.
The M.Sc (taught) from the UK is a one year M.Sc. program with 180 credits divided as follows,
- 120 credits: taught courses
- 60 credits: Research project

It is probably not equivalent, as a Master in Germany is a 2-year program. However, that does not mean that a potential supervisor is not willing to take you.

Maybe you'll have a hard time, as the average German student will probably have a lot more practical research experience (master thesis at least 6 months, often longer + other internships before that), which is usually highly valued by group leaders.

I would just give it a try. You have nothing to lose but time ;) Just search for PhD ads in your field or directly contact interesting groups. I would not be surprised if you find a position :)

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Hey Asyuda ! University cities in Sweden are like a ghost town during holiday season. Almost the whole staff takes vacation in that period. I'm afraid you probably have to wait a bit :/

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From kikothedog:
Don't worry too much, this seems to be the norm. I spent 18 months in the lab earning practical experience but nothing from that will form part of my thesis. Even the reading I did moved on. I'm sure your on track.

Shouldn't you have that practical experience before you started? I don't really see how you finish a PhD in 3 to 4 years if you spent 1.5 years without making any progress with the thesis.

I am not a psychologist, but I would expect that you had a broad education in psychology and that you now have to get the knowledge for your special research field in psychology. Do you really need a year to read the essential stuff? Sounds a bit boring too ;)

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Please do consider doing an MA in between. Not only are MA scholarships easier to come by (comparatively), but the experience of being a research student is invaluable when it comes to doing a PhD. I've never been comfortable with the direct undergraduate to PhD system.

Completely agree with that. Especially in lab sciences practical research experience is everything. No wonder that many people struggle when they start their PhD right after the bachelor. The only noteworthy research project you've done are a few months of bachelor thesis (usually under supervision) and suddenly they expect you to handle a 3+ years long term project on your own.

If going abroad for 2 years is an option, I can highly recommend a master in Sweden or Germany. For EU citizens it is often free, the standards are high and you find many Masters that are taught in English. Often your chances are especially good as a foreigner, as many universities try to promote an international environment (especially in Sweden). It also looks good on the CV if you have studied abroad, which is always nice to have ;)

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Dunham 303 posts
9 years ago

Quote From TreeofLife:

I believe students in Germany and the Netherlands are paid less than students in the UK. but I may be wrong. Obviously that evens out if we are not paid for our 4th year though.

In Germany they definitely earn less (1200 to 1500 euros a month) and you also seldom get four years from the beginning but we have no tuitions or fees and the department often finds a way to finance the already expected overrun, without hiring you as a research assistant and making you work on non-PhD related topics. But it might be that I just met the nice group leaders so far ;)

In the Netherlands you earn 2100 euros in the first year and 2700 euros in the fourth year according to the PhD ads. They have 100% positions and are treated like normal employees in a company. You work full time, they pay you full time. That's what I experienced in scandinavia too. Unfortunately, most bigger european countries give a shit about PhD students and prefer to get more cheap labor over appropriate working conditions....
I don't know why that is, as these countries easily compete with Germany, UK and France in terms of research...

Overview of Dunham

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