For one thing it would be illegal for a company to discriminate on age in the way you describe, secondly they would be unlikely to want to anyway, as they'd probably look favourably on someone slightly older, because you've got either more work experience and/or higher education, plus hopefully the emotional maturity and life experience to know what you want to do in life.

Finally though, surely there's not all that much difference between 23/24 and 25/26 from an employer's point of view? I could understand your concern perhaps if you were going to be in your 40s or older and applying for graduate schemes. But I doubt anyone is going to care about or even notice if you're a year or two older than the average graduate!

I think it sounds perfectly normal - if we already knew everything about how to do research, write formal proposals etc right from the start of the PhD process, we wouldn't need supervisors! I'm sure it's absolutely normal and in fact desirable for the proposal to go through several iterations, with some advice and 'constructive criticism' from the supervisor - in fact if you didn't get any suggestions for improvement at all, it would be likely your supervisor wasn't doing a good job.

I can imagine just how you feel though. I often feel quite insecure and worried about what people think of me, and any criticism or less-than-100% positive comment on my work tends to confirm my fears that they think I'm stupid or lazy or incapable. But I know that's something I need to work on getting over :(

Did you call/email to ask about the outcome of the interview? I know it seems likely they'd have got in touch with you by now if they wanted to offer you the place, but it's worth asking (sometimes it just takes them a long time to get all the administration done!) and even if it's a 'no' it gives you the chance to ask for constructive feedback, which would be useful if you want to apply for another one.

Southampton's computer science department is very well thought of, especially if you're interested in the 'web science' side of things, some interesting interdisciplinary work going on there. Manchester and Glasgow fairly prestigious too.

But as people mentioned, for a PhD it depends mostly on you and what your research interests are, and which research group/supervisor you're most keen to work with, and also personal considerations like what sort of place you'd be happiest living in. For example, Loughborough is a campus-based university and the town itself is relatively small and quiet, so that would be a different experience from a big city like Glasgow or Birmingham.

I went to Manchester for my undergrad (maths/CS) and liked it, academically very good and the city is a nice place to live as a student. Big enough to have everything you could want, but small enough that you can live in a nice-ish 'leafy' area further out but still be a walk or short bus ride from campus, also considerably cheaper than London, for example! And I liked being near the Peak District for easy access to walking and climbing. But you have to think about what you like, if you're going to be there for 3 or 4 years at least, it's worth making sure the research interests you and matches your career aspirations, and that you're going to be reasonably happy living and working there.

If you're sure that being a doctor and working with patients is what you want to do, then I wouldn't advise spending 3+ years on a PhD (unless you really do want to do a PhD for your own reasons).  I wouldn't do it just as a way of getting you onto a UK medical degree course (which it might not anyway), a BSc and Masters should be more than enough in terms of academic qualifications for graduate medicine. I agree with others that you might need to start thinking now about gaining relevant practical experience, and how to demonstrate that you have a real commitment to studying medicine and becoming a doctor, and an understanding of what that will involve.

I had a couple of really bad interviews, similar problems to what you describe - I could have kicked myself afterwards because I did know the answers to the questions, just couldn't think clearly because I was so anxious and couldn't get my words out in time. and didn't get the place, though the feedback I got was not at all as bad as I expected, and my rejection was more down to other candidates having more relevant experience rather than my terrible interview performance - maybe they were just being generous with the feedback, but I think it's true that these things often don't come across as badly as we think at the time.

On the positive side, I had another interview that went really quite well, and got and accepted the offer. That time I got on really well with the interviewers (prospective supervisors) and didn't feel at all intimidated, I guess because they made the interview more like a normal conversation than an proper interview, so we just had a good enthusiastic conversation about the project and my background, with questions and answers flowing both ways, rather than them firing questions at me in an adversarial way.

I sympathise as well, I don't find it easy to contribute in big meetings etc, I agree that in a way it's harder than standing up to give a talk or presentation, because at least in that case you have a chance to prepare and practise what you're going to say! I sometimes get into this awful situation where I start a sentence and realise I don't know how to finish it, and it just trails off in a pathetic manner. It probably didn't seem as bad as you think to other people though, these things often feel worse than they really are, especially if you're inclined to feel self-conscious anyway. I'm sure lots of people in academia have been through similar experiences.

I agree about writing down a few notes to remind yourself of the points you want to make, can be useful for those moments when you're just lost for words. It gets easier with practice, and as you start to feel more confident in your own knowledge and expertise in your area.

Did they tell you the outcome yet? If not, don't give up hope, sometimes it turns out not to have been as bad as you thought.

I do hate telephone interviews though, had to have one for one of my PhD applications as the supervisor was out of the country at the time, and found it very difficult and awkward. It's much easier to relate to someone face-to-face, I think, on the telephone with someone you don't know it's very difficult to build a rapport and for the conversation to flow properly. Or maybe that's just me, I've always disliked using the phone generally.

I wonder about the funding because the UK has a rule about funding study at lower or equivalent level - this certainly applies at undergrad level, and means you have to pay the full tuition fees, not the government-subsidised rate most home students pay. I was lucky that when I did my second BSc (don't ask!) I could get another student loan and pay the reduced fees only, but now it's changed. For example I know someone who wants to go to medical school as a graduate, but is struggling to find the funds to do so, as they'd have to pay full fees, which is a lot! It might be different for PhDs, I guess you'd have to find out from the research council that would be funding you.

Not sure about your field, but certainly the MRC and possibly some other, have career development fellowships which are specifically for post-docs wishing to move into a slightly different field

I have this from time to time, it seems to coincide with stress/anxiety and tiredness for me. Once when I was under a lot of stress I had it in various other muscles as well, in my arms and legs, along with general muscle aches. I was convinced (especially after a bit of googling) that something must be seriously wrong with me, which of course only added to the anxiety and made the symptoms worse. I even got it slightly in a muscle in my throat that I didn't know existed, that was very weird. I eventually went to my GP who said it was normal and stress-related. It went away on it's own after a while, though I still get it occasionally.

Not sure how you make it stop, maybe just try to get enough sleep if you can and take regular breaks, and based on my experience, don't worry about it, or you make it worse!

I agree you should do what's best for you - it's your PhD and your career after all, so if you really feel the other place would suit you better, you should go. I'd let the other supervisor know as soon as possible though, so he can find someone else for that place/funding. Apologise and explain your situation politely, it's likely he'll understand, I'm sure it's quite a common thing that happens.

And if he's completely unreasonable, like 404's example, you probably don't want to spend 3/4 years working with him anyway!

I don't know enough about this field to make specific recommendations, but I would start looking at who has recently published research on the subjects that interest you, which should give you an idea of potential supervisors, then you could approach them to discuss your ideas? Or maybe your current tutors could advise you about the best institutions for this sort of research?

With a PhD, it's your project, so you should be able to steer it in the direction you want (with advice from your supervisor). And there are plenty of people doing interdisciplinary PhD projects with two or more supervisors, which might be what you need.

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I don't want to dismiss out of hand the idea that you've been facing racism, because it's not something I've ever had to deal with (and it's unlikely I ever will) so it would be easy for me to say from my privileged position that it doesn't exist. I know that even people who would be horrified at being called 'racist' sometimes have unconscious prejudices and bias towards people who are like themselves. But having said that, university departments are pretty diverse places, in science at least you tend to get a real mix of nationalities and backgrounds.

And I agree that a couple of rejections is nothing - don't take it to personally, I've certainly been through such experiences and I guess many of us here have too. I generally managed to get shortlisted and interviewed, but had to go through a lot of interviews before I was successful. I generally got feedback along the same lines as yours 'You were a strong applicant, however someone else was better'. There's just so much competition for funded places and pretty much everyone who applies has good qualifications.

I agree with the suggestion to get a tutor or someone to look over your application - they know how the system works and what the admissions panel are looking for - but apart from that you just have to keep trying, disheartening as it is, and maybe keep the part-time thing in mind so you can fall back on that if all else fails...

======= Date Modified 21 Apr 2010 07:58:58 =======
If you mean you were rejected at the initial application stage, then unfortunately it's normal not to be offered feedback (it's the same for many jobs as well). I'd say you were 'lucky' even to get a refusal letter, often you just get told to assume you were unsuccessful if you don't hear from them!

If you were interviewed though, I'm surprised you didn't get feedback.

I agree with what others have said, unfortunately having good qualification doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, it's likely that all the applicants will have a good first degree, probably a master's, and some relevant research/work experience, and there are usually just more well-qualified applicants than there are places/studentships. Most likely the reason is exactly what they said, limited spaces and someone else had slightly more relevant experience, or maybe someone else got in there first and they'd already decided to offer the place to that person before they got your application. Or maybe an internal candidate already lined up.

I think you just have to keep trying. If you think you might be doing something wrong in your application, could you get someone to review it (like one of your former tutors or one of your referees) and see if they can offer any advice?

Hi rmokh, I'm in a similar situation to you as well, just a few years older and also currently working in banking (and hate it) and will be starting a PhD later this year. When I decided I wanted to do the PhD I started out by reading some papers online, going to university web sites and looking at the research interests of the staff, then looking up their publications. Also searching findaphd.com and jobs.ac.uk for funded programmes in my field.

You say you feel you're in a scary place, it sounds actually as if you're in a very strong position. You have a job, so you're not in the situation of a student coming to the end of their current course and desperately needing a job or studentship. You can afford to take your time and evaluate all your options and you don't have to rush into accepting a place that you're not 100% happy with. I felt the 'time is running out' panic as well, but 25 is not in any way old for starting a PhD, plenty of people start in their 30s or 40s or even later.