The thing is--if we WERE back together we would NOT get along--I think sometimes people have a hard time understanding people who are divorced not hating each other's guts.

To me, if you love someone, you want them to be happy, whether that includes you or not. If you condition your desire for them to be happy on your inclusion, then what you feel is NOT love, but many other things. I wish my ex only the best in his life without me, and hope he is and does find those things that are fulfilling for him. People ask if I still love him, and I say, yes, but that love is not sufficient to make the marriage work. I love him still in the sense I have described--I do genuinely wish him well in his life, even or especially without me.

Olivia, I can understand totally what you are saying. I'm sad my marriage failed but I want my ex to be happy and hope we can still be friends. We have had ten years together and I wouldn't want to change the majority of those as we were very, very happy. But people's lives change and they often want different things which are incompatible with being married. It is healthier for all concerned to end the marriage rather than stick with it if one or both of the people aren't happy and feel stuck and stifled.

I agree with you Pam, on sometimes the healthiest, kindest and best step for both in a marriage is to end the marriage. People see divorce as failure, but I don't agree with that. How many people remain in a loveless, horrid marriage--is that a success by any measure of the word? People judge the "success" of a marriage by its duration, not by its quality, and I think that is the wrong measure. I used to say that my divorce was the best gift I ever gave myself--people thought that was daft--but getting divorced took a lot of courage, a lot of determination to respect myself, to value myself, my feelings and my dreams. It was a step towards self-affirmation, and even my ex agreed on that point!

there are statistics that say that the longer a couple has been together before marriage, the likelier they will get divorced.
i guess if i want to stay with my partner we shouldn't get married
Smilodon, if you don't mind - did you have IVF or other sorts of "help"?
Hypothesis, sorry to hear your marriage is disintegrating, I hope it is not too tough on you.
all: amazing range of stories! thanks for sharing!

very interesting discussion.

olivia - i think a PhD is just as hard as a marriage. you'll soon discover that. one's committment to it matters more than love or passion for it.

Olivia, I'm so glad to hear you say that: I totally agree, but find I'm usually in the minority with my views.

I agree cos my parents had a horrendous marriage, yet refused to divorce "for the sake of you kids": as if the simple act of not divorcing somehow meant that their marriage was a success. It wasn't, and everyone would have been happier if they'd divorced and started again. I can still get mad when people treat divorce as a failure: it can be a positive step, especially where there are children involved who really should't be forced to witness their parents' misery on a daily basis.

OK, I'm off the soapbox now.

Agreed 100% Juno.

The language around marriage and divorce is so loaded--to say a marriage failed to equal divorce is something I try to avoid ( but its so common sometimes I just say it). I used to tell people my marriage did not fail, it ended. Two very very different concepts. As I said, for many years it was a happy marriage, in the end, personal differences that could not be resolved drove two people apart. My ex now remarks rather frankly that marriage means a lot of compromise, and he is not someone who likes to compromise--he wants things his way. Well, that can make for a difficult time in a marriage! He is happier being a single man ( although he has a current long-term relationship, they do not live together--his wish, not hers).

Given that, how could a marriage have worked? Only if I either wanted to have pitched battles on key issues, or swallowed my desires and subordinated them to his anytime there was a disagreement...neither one is a happy prospect for a long term marriage or partnership of any sort!

Mind, I was not sanguine about divorce while it was ongoing--I had my share of anger, hurt, sadness, etc...but I was fortunate that over time my ex and I had a series of discussions where we could be very frank with each other, and work through the issues we each had of hurt, etc, and come to a resolution and closure of those issues. The discussions were sometimes sad but never angry or accussing, never inappropriate or immature or blaming, just simply two adults trying to make some peace in their own worlds, and move forward, respecting the other but moving on without them.

This, I think, was a rare but blessed occurence. In this, I think, I have been fortunate, and if asked the life lesson from all of it, is the importance and power in forgiveness,,,both of self and of others.

I do sympathise with all of you who had to go through the heartache or rather, the relief of getting divorced :) However, I still hold the views that if a marriage ends in divorce it has failed, even if they remain together but unhappilly (for the sake of the kids). I would consider divorce only in the event of infidelity.

I do agree that marriage in constnat compromise on both parties and both shoould realise that they no longer live for themselves alone but for their partners as well. Marrige does require constant work and attention to keep it alive and the flames burning or else it will slowly but surely wither away.

If neither party is willing to give time, effort, emotion, patience, dedication and not forgetting love, then they must be certain that the marriage is most likely going to fail or end at some point.

Cryogenics--what would you define as a "successful" marriage? Is it marked by duration, or by quality? I never imagined being divorced--I think most people who get married at least for the first time do not even entertain the prospect of divorce--not sure about those who marry for a subsequent time.

But I whole heartedly disagree that divorce=failure.

Again, by what measure or definition?

Marriage is about love, honor, respect, until death do you part--and if spouses have ceased to love, honor or respect each other but remain married--how is that even a marriage, except in name? If, on the other hand, divorce occasions that each ( former) spouse can maintain some measure of love, honor and respect for the other--is that not honoring what marriage is REALLY about--even if marriage ends?

Well if it weren't for divorce then my husband would still be married to soemone else! Actually he's been married twice before whereas I have always been very reticent to make that comittment. But sometimes you have to take a leap of faith - you can't always be holding back and watching the game of life from the sidelines.

While I definitley think compromise (and wanting the best for each other) is essential, if a marriage were as much trouble as this PhD I think I would bail. And certainly if your marrriage too much hard work before kids it will go down in flames when the first baby comes along.

Cryo--not trying to start an argument here or disagree with you--but am curious about why you would only want a divorce in the event of infidelity, but not for other reasons?

I would have forgiven infidelity, if my spouse were willing to move forward and work on all the other items in the marriage. Without question, I would have been upset, but without question, I would have found it in my heart to forgive and try to keep the marriage viable IF my spouse wanted that.

so, for you, why is infidelity the point of no return on marriage--but not other issues?