Well, I think there are reasons other than infidelity where divorce is a postive outcome. There's the obvious (child abuse, for example), but also if the couple really cannot live together without destroying the peace of mind of their extended family too. In my family's case everyone got dragged into it: grandparents, uncles, work colleagues.

However, this is one of those highly personal decisions where no-one can say what's right for sure. My point was just that I agree with Olivia that divorce is sometimes the right thing to do, and that isn't a failure to my mind.

I agree Olivia - infidelity comes in many flavours and there are worse things that can happen in a marriage.

Shani - yes my daughter came via (my second) IVF - do you have any particular reason for asking?

Someone mentioned child abuse as a reason for divorce. Another issue in marriage ( and non marital relationships as well) is spousal ( or partner) abuse. You can only applaud someone who has been abused, who gets out of the abusive relationship. Abuse is an invidious cycle, and it destroys the self-esteem of the person who is being abused. I worked with battered women when I was practicing law, and I read some statistics that on average, an abused person leaves and re-enters the relationship SEVEN TIMES before they leave for good. I have seen as well the devastation that abuse wreaks on a person through the experiences of a close friend. An abusive marriage "failed" when the abuse began--not when the marriage ended.

Olivia, i understand you're not trying to pick an argument. I am no stranger to the belief that marriage is not all rosy and there will be times in it that would be terribly difficult to live with your partner. I consider a successful marriage by quality of course and not quantity, for a marriage could be dead while the couple live out their lives just for the sake of it or for a particular reason known to them.

As for infidelity, there is always forgiveness as you have said and i would forgive my partner if they were ever in that position and were truly sorry.

But it is the only ground that i might consider a divorce if i couldn't handle it (infidelity i mean). No one really knows what specific circumstance they would face in a marriage and no one goes into a marriage believing that it is not going to last (if anyone did this and are currently divourced, you know why)

infidelity is one ground i can't go back on. once some lines are crossed, there is no point of return. esp., that one. in other words, it will never be the same again. if they could be unfaithful then, they will certainly be unfaithful in the future - and even then, it means they had no love, honor and respect for you and they never will. that's the bitter truth.

I do understand that jojo and you do have the right not to let them another chance, but it might be helpful to look at from another perpective, and ask yourself whether you played a part in making your partner look elsewhere.

I think that infidelity is a symptom of larger issues in a marriage or relationship--it does not just "happen". Nor do I think that the cheated upon partner need castigate themselves as to blame for what happened. The partner who cheated made THAT choice and crossed THAT line on their own--no matter what led them to that line, the choice to go over belongs to them, and them alone, AND the cheating partner needs to own full responsibility for the choice to unzip outside of the marriage. No ifs, no ands, no buts--people are not "driven" to cheat--they make their own choices, there may be dynamics that push them in that direction, but the final act, of crossing that Rubicon, of the ultimate decision to ACT--its theirs alone.

i always said that if my husband as unfaithful, then he would be out, no messing, luckily he never was (as far as I know of course!!!). however the reason i said that was because my parents should have divorced, my mum wouldn't do it, so they remained 'separated'. I must admit I never understood why - he lived next door to us with another lady and it was really hard for me being stuck in the middle, my two brothers were much older than me, by 20 -yes, 20 - and 16 years, so were long gone by this time. Recently my daughter has been looking at our family tree, which has some very interesting characters in it, and I have realised that I may have misjudged the situation and it was my mum who was at fault, although I can never check this now as both are dead. It would explain a lot though.

The thing is that the situation really affected me and made me keep several potential husbands at arms length so to all those people who do anything but face the fact that they need to divorce I would say that you have to think of the potential harm of whatever action you decide to take and choose whichever is the least harmful to not only yourselves, but to anyone else involved.

i agree with olivia's last post. i prefer to be with a man of strong character. either we divorce so that he can go elsewhere, or he stays. he can't stay and cheat at the same time. can't have his cake and eat it. he has to make up his mind what he wants. (am using 'he' cause am female and hetero.) this also applies to women.

Of course jojo on the ground of infidelity, it is either of the two divorce or stay married and change your ways. However, you have to see it this way that it may not be a partner's fault for cheating (although i do not really see this as an excuse!) You may have been the one not paying your partner attention in the marriage, lack of communication, passion and a big one, sex- that once the other party finds someone 'out there' who in the least provides this, they are tempted.

Just like you said, Olivia it is their choice to cheat or not but you played a small part in it

That line of thinking, Cryo, really bothers me--that people just fall prey to their temptations and "its not their fault". Would that same cheating partner use that line of reasoning to rob a bank--geez, there was all that MONEY in that bank, and if it had not have been there to tempt me I would not have robbed the bank, its not MY FAULT. Or--this one--that women should not have been wearing a short skirt and walking down the road at one minute past sunset--I was so tempted, and it was her fault, I am not responsible, I was tempted and it was not MY FAULT...

OF COURSE the person who cheats is responsible and of course it is their fault and if they are unable to resist the temptation of everything in a skirt ( or pants or whatever) that wafts by, they haven't got any business being in a relationship of any sort.

That line of thinking at its worst invites rape, date rape, etc, and declares the actor ( esp. when male) not responsible. I do not subscribe to the view that all men are unable to resist temptations and cannot control their impulses. If this is true, people who are so impulse prey belong in a secured environment where they will do no harm to others.