Yeah, I don't really consider myself to be just hanging around until I get old because I've got no other prospects. If I don't get a career in academia, it certainly won't be because I'm a failed scientist. Honestly, anyone would be damn lucky to have me working for them because I'm intelligent, I work hard, I get on well with people, I'm productive, I look for ways to improve working, I'm independent, I'm interested in learning and I could go on... Being good at science is actually a very small part of my abilities.

I did my PhD out of interest, not because I thought it would improve job prospects. I left a good career to do a PhD, so it was a conscious choice to do something I wanted to do with my life. I think I've got a good a shot as anyone to get a post doc, then a fellowship and then who knows? What's the alternative? Back to the office? Working crazy hours, working with stupid people that don't want to be there, working just to make money for someone else? No thanks.

I did not mean that in an offensive way. The "failed" scientist refered to the fact that someone that leaves university after 2 post docs at the age of 35 to join a company obviously aimed for a career in academia but realized that this is not going to work out. This circumstance is rather a disadvantage as companies prefer scientists who actually want to do applied science and were aiming for industry even though they could have gone for a permanent position in academia. That's of course only what I've been told so far. And isn't it always about money? A huge part of the professor's work is fundraising ;)

I know what you meant, but I wouldn't consider that person a failed scientist either.

Funding for research and funding to line an executive's pockets are two different things, IMO.

>>> The "failed" scientist refered to the fact that someone that leaves university after 2 post docs at the age of 35 to join a company obviously aimed for a career in academia but realized that this is not going to work out.

- I'm young and I even haven't finished my PhD but already my plan(as for now) is to do one or two Postdocs and then switch to industry (or work closely with industry). That's what I would consider as success not failure. You improve your knowledge and develop some ideas. Then you put your thought together and with the help of industry you make a change to the world.


>>> isn't it always about money? A huge part of the professor's work is fundraising

-No! it is not about money. It is about creating opportunities to contribute more and spread/improve your work. After all the fund is spent on research tools, hiring postdocs or students who can help with the research. So it is about one's passion.

Well, that might be a legit plan like becoming a professor one day. If it works like this is on another page ;)



I don't know in which field you are working (math?) but that is definitely not my impression and far too romantic (imo). Science is a business like everything else and at least in the life science you don't achieve anything without money. It's all about grants and they go often to the bigger name with the better connections and not to the places were good science is done.

But this is anyway going off topic

It all depends on the motivation for starting a PhD. I agree if one spends 3-5 years to get a PhD in hope of a higher salary or promotions at industry/business. Well, there are probably easier ways for that.

On the other hand, there are people who pursue a PhD to follow their passion which they consider worthy. Government/Industry should invest on things that are worthy. Getting grants is a way to aware them of the impact of your research and in return you enjoy the honour of achievements you were looking for. Win-Win ;)

Which field you are talking about being easy to get postdoc? I am in materials engineering and it is very hard to get postdoc not only in UK but also other countries. I found my current position after long search and came to europe from Canada for that. I also know of other PhD students in my lab who struggled hard to get postdoc position. Another PhD student in my lab (who was better than me I know, had more publications than me, finished earlier than me), was jobless for 2 years. Finally he got one postdoc position in other country after 2 years and he went there. So it very much depends on field. In our field, having 4 publications minimum till PhD is considered a norm. I wonder if it so hard to find just postdoc position then how hard it will be to get academic faculty position. Academics has become hugely competitive and there seems a hard way after PhD for future career.

In natural sciences it is relatively "easy" to find one but that strongly depends on the country you are searching in. For instance, in Germany the phd students have a really low salary, which means that you can hire 2 phd students for the price of a post doc. In Scandinavia the gap between post doc and phd salaries is not that big and therefore you find more post doc positions.

From reading this I get an impression as if the post doc would be already the permanent position that it is in fact not. If you are 2 years jobless and then get a post doc you will be most likely jobless after your contract ends. How many professors or lecturers do you know that have been unemployed for a longer period? A time where you did not publish at all. I think you will never catch up again and it looks terrible on your cv. You really need a shitload of luck to make it in a permanent position then. I personally can't help it but think that this is just pointless. No matter if it is your dream or not at some point you should just accept that this is not meant to be. Let's face it, there are tons of scientists out there in their late 30s, who did not make it and will tell you that they would never go this road again and somehow ruined their lives by not leaving when there was still time to do so. I can imagine that it is not really nice when you are 38 and don't know how to pay your rent in two or three months because your part time teaching job is not at all sufficient to make a living. I met several people during my practical courses that are not 40 yet but just gave up and accepted long-term unemployment. Nobody in industry hires them (hundreds of failed applications, they don't even get job interviews) and academia, as we all know, kicks you out after a certain amount of years if you don't get a permanent position.

I don't want to sound too negative or pessimistic and this is definitely depending on the subject but it is not like there is always a happy ending. In my opinion that is really sad because those people often sacrificed a lot and did one hell of a job but that's like it is.

Well if doesn't work out, there are other ways of making money. I will just use the skills I have: I could tutor biology, I could write a novel, I could become a teacher, I could apply for a science-type job with a funding body and so forth. There's no need to sit on benefits. It's about how you choose to market yourself and use your skills.

Well said TreeofLife! I agree, it's not just academia or failure. Something like 70% of people with PhD's go onto careers that are not academia, they are not failures! They are using their skills and talents in hundreds of other possible careers from project management and business owners to careers advisors or patent lawyers they are all worthwhile careers where your PhD would benefit you.