NoPhDMan,

I had a similar experience to you doing a post-doc at a second Uni. after my PhD. Many of the comments you make I can relate to directly. I would not be surprised to learn it was a certain University and department (don't name!!!).

There is a University Ombudsman in the United Kingdom at the website I list.

However, the expectation is for you to have exhausted the appeals process at your own University before you resort to using them.

Have you contacted the Student Union at your former University (as a PhD candidate, you are technically a student) as they also may be able to offer advice as regards appeals and the complaints procedure?

I normally encourage people not to rock the boat, however, it appears you have nothing to lose by complaining and appealing.

If they penalise your wife because of your complaint, then that is extra cause for complaint (though how you'd prove that is a different matter).

Did you keep a log of events, a diary or e-mail correspondnce from the time as these could act as proof in your favour? I kept data and e-mail correspondence from my second-postdoc just in case the situation resulted in legal proceedings.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Thank you Ian. I'm so glad I registered on this forum. Seriously. I would've gone insane with guilt & depression & self pity. Your words & advice have meant a lot as, obviously, one feels that they're alone in a particular situation. I wish I could name the university. I'd love to both for personal reasons & so that other people don't end up the same way as I did with a permanent scar in their lives & careers.

I already appealed but that was turned down too. It was as if NO ONE was on my side, as if I'd committed some sort of heinous crime. In all honestly, I felt that they treated me like a criminal, from the meetings with the PG tutor to the THICK file that "professor" had on me. Till this day I can't believe that, that is how they treat their students. I am still shocked ! In the appeal, my sup did NOT talk abt all the work I'd done nor my 2 research papers. Basically, all these people turned out to be selfish only looking out for themselves in every way.

I have not appealed on a university level. I really don't care now to be honest. This entire ordeal including the phd itself (with these people) affected me mentally & I'd rather not have ANY correspondence with them ever again. I don't ever want to see their faces or hear their voices cuz I got so tired of their bullsh*t ! However, everyday I rehearse what I'll say to them when my wife's done with her phd & has her degree in her hand. And then I think, God will judge them.

Ur info was very helpful but I want to move on now. FYI I don't have anything to hide. It's just that I want to move on. I didnt keep any notes on them bcoz I'd never have imagined that they treated their students like criminals !

I don't have access to my uni emails anymore as they restricted access right after the withdrawal meeting. Also (and I expected this), they had altered some of the emails from that fiend of a prof. He had never sent me a single nice email. They allowed access to my emails during the appeals process but I didn't require them as I couldn't mention the important things e.g. how I'd been treated & all the people who took part in stabbing me. So I went through some emails from that prof & you wouldn't believe: THEY HAD BEEN ALTERED ! Now u might think maybe I overlooked some details etc. But, I have a VERY good memory & I've always paid VERY close attention to detail. I would read those emails a lot whenever that prof would make me feel like sh*t just to see where (during my phd) he started making me feel like a failure so I'd know if anything had been altered. That prof had NEVER been helpful in any way let alone motivating me. These emails seemed to have magically sprouted STRONG words of motivation. As soon as I read those emails I knew appealing at that uni was a wild goose chase. If they could alter emails & keep a 6inch thick file on me then no matter what I did or said or what evidence I gave, everything would be used against me & they'd NEVER let me back. And that's exactly what happened.

hi nophdman
Can I just ask which (first) appeal did you do (based on the first part of your quoted response to Ian)? I'm just thinking about the £55K that they want you to pay--how will you go about that? If you don't plan to do anything, then it looks like nothing can be done--how will you move on like this? When did this (the cancellation of your UK visa and you had to go home) happen? Is there any way you can seek legal advice from where you are right now (India for example)?

I haven't heard of any university coming after a "failed" phd student to get the money back--but then again I myself have not been in the phd game long enough to know about this. Can someone else comment on this?

I'm also thinking about your wife and if she is alone in the UK with your child, how is she coping?

You say you want to move on. I think you need to heal yourself first--because you do sound very bitter--and seem to be holding on to all the injustice that has (unfortunately) occurred to you--sorry you may not like what I'm going to say--but here goes--are you able to "let this go", not to be attached to these angry thoughts, let them go--because if you can, your process of moving on will definitely be easier.

Good people, bad people, boiled, fried, steamed, baked, barbequed---they will always be there--
so what?!

never mind!

You are you. Move on as you said.

1. Give your wife the love and emotional support she needs
2. Give yourself time to heal
3. Think of positive things to do for yourself for the Day
4. Look for either a new phd or a job
5. Do not identify yourself with all the injustice and bad experience you had because this will feed the negativity in you
6. Do not think of the past, as it is gone
7. Do not think of the future, for it has yet to come
8. Just think of Now, just BE

love satchi

Was there a possibility to change "Sup" ? I think that would have been a good idea; don't you?

Hey satchi cheers for ur reply. Also, I'm curious. By satchi du mean "truthful" in urdu ? :P I will reply tu later. Right now gng to work. And wweasydoesit86: man that is obviously the first thing I wouldve done had this happened in my first yr or towards the end of the 1st yr. But they screwed me over midway through my 3rd yr ! That's what I've been trying to say here. I have results, I've got 2 experimental research papers. I was NEVER rude to anyone, nor did I do anything even remotely criminal. I will never know why they did what they did. I mean sure the reasons they gave me were procedure: attendance issues & lack of progress & then the fking PG tutor rubbed it in further saying my work wasnt of top quality. Tell that to the world class experts who accepted my papers on coal combustion.They needed to get rid of me so they did, simple as that !

Bottom line: I have no more money left & shame on me if I continue my phd in that university !

Hi nophdman
I'm not familiar with Urdu :-) but if Satchi means Truthful, I'm all for it!!!
I picked this name short from Sat-chit-ananda which means Full of Bliss in Sanskrit!
So I suppose using Satchi alone will mean I'm always FULL :-)

I was crazy about Sanskrit for a long time.
I loved the language so much.
Words like Karuna for Compassion.
Sahana for Forbearance.

so you have a job now? WOW! I'm so glad for you. I am still looking...looking at job adverts etc. :-)

and you still want to do a phd... I remember seeing your other thread about wanting to apply. But you have a job :-) if it were me--and I had a job of which I was happy doing--I would forget about doing the phd. It took me a long time to realise that I really shouldn't have started my phd--but at that time (when I started the phd!) I wasn't aware of this. But of course I can't change what has happened--and here I am, phd almost done (have to do viva) and still not found any paid work. Yet.

never mind :-)

be happy

love satchi

@ nophdman>>> really sorry for you. Me either have problem with the university at this moment..., still broken my heart

May I ask that Univesity locate in which town?

@satchi>>> I really like your comment and your idea of the world-viewing...ie Karuna, Sahana ..

Ok i'm not usually a very cuddly touch feely advice giver, however I tend to tell you what others have not or wont, and sometimes exactly what you need to hear. You have my permission to feel offended.

Full disclosure, I am also a father of a 1 year old married a very successful wife and about to start my PhD.

1. You got screwed, now get over it. Seriously. Take the time you want to feel sorry for yourself, think all the crazy thoughts and then get over it! Your wife and child needs you. Pick yourself up, decide if you want to go back at your PhD, teaching, research or another career. Make a plan and move on. This guy failed the legal bar exam 47 times. You may want to read his story:

http://archive.calbar.ca.gov/Archive.aspx?articleId=54802&categoryId=54503&month=2&year=2004

Heal your body, mind and spirit. I don't know if your are spiritual, but even listening to positive thinkers is a start. Go outside for a run and clear your head. Look for some light in the dark and follow it. But just like fat loss and quitting smoking you have to want it. A priest once told me, if you found you dug yourself into a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.

2. Stop using words like "my life if destroyed". Far as I can tell that is a huge lie because 1. you are alive and 2. you have internet access. So unless there is free WiFi in heaven, you are A LOT better off than many suffering souls today. Get a grip man.

3. Do not take this shit out on your wife and family. Its not her fault and not theirs. You did not mention it, but the kind of anger in your posts, I am afraid she may be a casualty of your ire. Be careful how that affects your marriage. Trust me, I know.

CONTD..

CONTD

4.(This applies to other PhD posters on here as well) YOUR SUPERVISORS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. I am literally prepared to successfully negotiate my PhD if they assigned me Adolf Hitler as my supervisor. Understand your interests and your position. You interest is to GRADUATE! Your position is that your colleagues should at least be cordial and pleasant. Guess what, your position does not matter!

5. Take responsibility. I read that your supervisors wanted you to come in at 9 AM and you said you are not a morning person, so you came in late. Well guess what??...you also got kicked out of school because you were not a morning person. Your interest was to graduate however your position was that you needed more sleep. Without struggle there is no progress. You clearly decided that you were not willing to wake up early to ensure your future. I don't care if you were taking care of a baby all night, I do it all the time at get up at 3AM to do my research.

6. I love you. I really do brother. Stop hurting yourself. Pick yourself up off the floor, and get back in the fight. We all get taken down in life, but if you give up you will die where you are. If you get up however, something will replace that pain one day. Just get up, leave that pain behind, and just start walking.

P.S. Money problems always go away when action is taken, hence why I didn't bother to mention it.

My 2c

Fled, I like your post. Honestly is sometimes brutal but necessary.

Fled, that's so so so true. Truth bluntly and bitterly told.

Let me share this story with the readers on this forum. More than a decade ago, I witnessed a case in which a brilliant foreign student was simply literally "roasted" at her PhD viva. She was given major correction which should entail the collection of fresh data, fresh analysis and writing-up of an entirely new thesis within 12 months and then asked to resubmit for MPhil. Unlike the OP, she was fully funded. She initially fought the decision to resubmit for MPhil. This was upheld and she was allowed to resubmit for a PhD. However, because her work could best be described as attempting to gain a PhD from Pontificia Università Gregoriana in Rome on the basis of a thesis which affirms the Pope as an Anti-Christ, this lady packed it all in. But hers was a case of "she who fights and runs away will live to fight another day."

Now this is the interesting bit. She had an undergraduate diploma in another field which she picked and topped up in one calendar year, gaining a second bachelor's degree with a first. She then took a second master's degree which she completed with a distinction. Ultimately she got a fully funded PhD and successfully defended it in less than one hour at the viva voce examinations. It was case of gaining her bachelor's, masters and PhD (in the field of business studies/management) all in 5 years. Just one month after graduating from the PhD programme, she got a full time permanent lecturing position. Yes, it was a hellish, but she persevered and overcame. Latch on to the Obama Slogan and say to yourself "YES, I CAN!" and to all PhD students out there, do not allow anyone to turn your dream into nightmares: YES, WE CAN!

So here is a summary of what you've written so far.

Concerning your work ethics:
-------------
My work was slow but steady & my attendance was very good (not excellent).
I'm not a morning person therefore, I'd come in late & leave late but that prof wudnt have it.
I just wasnt able to work in the office,
I was late for a few meetings at times but hey, who isn't ?
I'm not a morning person & that prof wanted me to be there at 9am. I'd come in late
-------------

Concerning your inertia in the face of ongoing criticism:
-------------
I felt myself hanging on by a thread so many times. It was a horrible time !
I was expelled on the grounds of my attendance & my lack of progress.
I appealed after I was withdrawn but my sup AGAIN did not support me.
-------------

Concerning your attitude towards the people you worked with:
-------------
Theyre money grabbing pieces of filth, NOT professors !
I spit on the student union people as all these people are together. Theyre the biggest hypocrites ever !
when I approached the students union, more like criminal union !
Greedy vultures !
the PG tutor was a minion
would love nothing more than to sue these pieces of filth !
That goes to show u how deceptive & untrustworthy these people are !
wish these heartless, money-grabbing, good for nothing poor excuses for teachers, hypocritical pieces of filth should burn in hell
I'm angry all the time, angry with everyone who was a part of all this,
-------------

Honestly, don't you think the problem may have originated at your end? What did you expect from the university? Apparently you ignored all criticism and the lab's standards and let your working relationships deteriorate in the face of ongoing criticism over 2.5 years until they kicked you out.

Reading this entire conversation, I feel a bit scared. I see a lot of PhD students in my university and at other universities in the UK who do not come to university for weeks. Taking an entirely positive note, may be it all depends upon the supervisor: the amount of freedom you have in choosing to work in office or at home. Perhaps all it boils down to is to take the words of your supervisor very seriously.

UKPhDStudent, I think it does all depend on the supervisor and on negotiating with them. Mine is fine with me only going into university when necessary, as it is a lengthy train journey for me to get there and I'm far more productive at home. We keep talking about it, so he's fully aware of how I'm working and is in agreement with it.