"People make the point that "someone" should have picked up on "something". I gave a glance through it, and felt it was a bit patchy, but I have seen others with worse pass. Also I am not the expert (arguably she is or was supposed to be). "

I was not implying that you were the one at fault, BadHaircut: you are not. Where I am, there is a (sometimes tiresome) system of annual reviews (which we are told are a requirement), monthly reports and compulsory meetings with supervisors once a month - a system designed to pick out people who may need extra help.

That's not to say that that girl in question is not also at least a bit responsible.

Another group has serious supervisor problems (in that he hasn't showed up for nigh on 2 years, except on full moons and saints days). Most of the group has been assigned to new supervisors now, becuase his persistent absence was picked up in the review process.

I can see that is probably going to happen in our lab because our PI is always in the US. However, he is big enough to afford several PhDers fail on his watch as he keeps the grant money flooding in, and the publications pumping out.

I think Juno's system is fantastic and should be mandatory everywhere.

Undestandably for the forseeable future Marie is "off sick".

[/quote]

I would so be the breakdown student in a viva! tearing it up and throwing it out the window.... :$[/quote]

me too!! i can so imagine me having a breakdown during the viva and just saying, erm i really dont know anything , i dont know the answer to that, nor that! nor that. "i knnnnnoooow naaaathing" and i would say it in an itallian accent just for flair lol :p and say the examiner , yah i agree with you, its rubbish.

This happened to me 4 years ago. Coming from a developing/3rd world with limited access to the internet (unlike these days), I got admission and full funding to study with a guy who (although is well known and respected in his own field, internationally) has no expertise in my chosen subdiscipline.The moment I arrived, I smelled rat.Funding tied me down. I sought for assistance from others in the department.None of them specializes or have interests in my sub-discipline. Contacts made at conferences, etc gave helping hand.Second supervisor only read my final draft before submission. When I submitted 3.5 years later, I smelled DEAD RATS.External wasn't a specialist in my area, and the internal examiner was appointed from another department school, and his expertise has nothing remotely to do with my subject area.Of course, no one within my department was willing to examine the work, claiming the subject matter of my thesis falls outside the remit of their expertise. My second supervisor met to discuss my work once: this was the final draft before I submitted it for examination. Until the very last minute, just before entering the Viva room, my supervisor said 'you'll be fine, all is well, no problems'. I wasn't fine, all wasn't well and there problems.Viva roomed turned into slaughter's slab. I was finished.The verdict: resubmit after major correction for an MPhil. When the Dean of graduate School was briefed about all of this, I got a letter 2 months after the viva asking me to resubmit after major corrections for a PhD.Of course, by now, I had lost faith in the system.During my 3.5 years there the department graduated no PhD.The department was axed and all lecturers moved elsewhere.I did the same.This summer, my viva was successfully held. The verdict: resubmit after correcting spelling/grammatical errors.Luckily, this time around funding came from my home university where I was a lecturer.This whole issue, for me, underscores the need to overhaul the UK PhD system

This happened to me 4 years ago. Coming from a developing/3rd world with limited access to the internet (unlike these days), I got admission and full funding to study with a guy who (although is well known and respected in his own field, internationally) has no expertise in my chosen subdiscipline.The moment I arrived, I smelled rat.Funding tied me down. I sought for assistance from others in the department.None of them specializes or have interests in my sub-discipline. Contacts made at conferences, etc gave helping hand. When I submitted in my 4th year, I smelled DEAD RATS. External wasn't a specialist in my area. The internal examiner, from another department of the Uni has nothing to do with my subject area, even remotely. Within my department, no one was willing to examine the work. They claimed the theme of my thesis falls outside the remit of their expertise. My second supervisor met to discuss my work once: this was the final draft before submitting it for examination. Until the very last minute, just before entering the Viva room, both supervisors said 'you'll be fine...no problems'. Alas! the viva roomed turned into slaughter's slab. I was finished. The verdict: resubmit after major correction for an MPhil. When the Dean of graduate School was briefed about all of this, I got a letter 2 months after the viva asking me to resubmit after major corrections for a PhD. Of course, by then, I had lost faith in the system. During my 4 years there the department graduated no PhD. The department was axed and all lecturers moved elsewhere. I did the same.This summer, my viva was successfully held. The verdict: resubmit after correcting spelling/grammatical errors. Luckily, this time around funding came from my home university where I was a lecturer.This whole issue, for me, underscores the need to overhaul the UK PhD system.

That is awful I feel so sorry for her, but I do think that though supervisers only have a certain responsibility to ensure you are on the right track. Mine didnt even read my last two chapters before I submitted it and Im dont think this is unusual (?) after all it is your on work and opinions and i do feel there are plenty of opportunities to read others theses and see the sort of standard that is required.
Did she have a mock viva? I think these would be helpful for more people even if its only with fellow phds. A lecturer from another department kindly offered to give me a mock viva (this involved him reading the thesis so I owed him big time for that!) over a coffee which allowed me to practice just keeping up a stream of talk about my phd which is not something you often get to do without eyes glazing over! he also made me think about a couple of difficult questions that may come up (also regarding a paper i had written) and to prepare for them in a relaxed way. It paid off for me at my viva as I felt quite chilled and even enjoyed it and I am a very anxious person.

Can she appeal to resubmit for a phd? someone at our uni appealed an Mphil award and was allowed to rewrite for a phd. It would seem to me that if she has got publishable work out of it it may just be the writing that is not up to stratch?

Doing a PhD is only about luck. Nothing about skills at all. You have to be in a right place in a right time.

Sounds like you've had a bad experience, what happened? if you don't mind me asking.

I really feel for this person. Whilst I haven't exactly failed having been given a year to rewrite and told that I have to re-viva, my viva experience was utter hell and left me feeling completely destroyed, demoralised and terribly upset. This experience was four months ago and I am still in the position of feeling rage towards the external examiner and being completely overwhelmed when I look at the pages of negative comments from her.
My situation: excellent university, great supervisors, enjoyed my subject, mature student having worked in research prior to and since my thesis was submitted, confident, happy-go-lucky sort of person.
I was a funded student, met monthly with my supervisors, underwent successful annual progress reviews, presented at various universities (on my thesis) etc etc - but, I got a complete ego-maniac of an external examiner whose first words were "I don't like anything that you've done and I'll tell you now that you are not getting a pass out of me today...". there then followed three hours of negative comments and very aggressive questioning. She also made frequent comparisons between myself and her own phd students.
When I was told that I would get a year to make amendments and re-submit I didn't feel too bad but she then followed this decision up with 'If I had had my way you would have been failed and make no mistake you have a mountain of work to do prior to re-submission', she then told me she would also be making me re-viva, this she seemed to take great delight in. She was still talking away at this point and I just picked up my stuff and walked out of the room - I tried not to cry until I got out of the room to hang onto what tattered dignity I had left.
In essence, she hated what I'd suggested and decided that because it wasn't done the way she would have done it that it was not worthy. The internal barely said a word and I have since found out that my department (where I was based during my funded phd time) is busy trying to make some commercial links with her department (which is in a top university).
All of this was months ago and I am still reeling from it all and am wondering if it is even worth continuing. My supervisors are trying to encourage me but I feel like I've had any strength and power beaten out of me when it comes to the thesis. I have nightmares about being back in the room with her and have been having panic attacks since the viva. It all sounds really pathetic but my god its incredible how much this can affect you.

omg how awful! she sounds like a right *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep* who took the jam out of her donut! my goodness! she sounds like she's got a right stick up her touche!

what terrible luck having her as an external examiner. damn damn damn. i dont suppose you can submit to another external examiner now, its too late. i cant believe she said those awful things, i dont blame you for feeling demoralised anyone would, in your situation. i can so see that happening to me!! my phd thesis is complete shite though so i probably will deserve a failing from a viva. even now as i write it, i think this this is crap! and want to throw it out the window or burn it and not submit it. but submit i must have. i can imagine you having panic attacks, thats completely understandable. but thats so good that your sups are being encouraging and nice.

good luck! and just give it your best shot and its your last chance so you may aswell. see what happens. really.

Angel of the north: It sounds like she went beyond what is considered constructive criticism and became personal. I suspect you have grounds for a formal complaint. If she had already decided you were not going to pass then surely there was no need to drag you though a gruelling viva? I would seriously look into asking for another viva, if that's possible.

Don't let this person get you down, she may have won the battle, but not the war. To say at the start that she wasn't going to pass it is plain sillyand your internal examiner should have stepped in was the other person a man or a mouse? You should query this approach and then complain, in writing to the university first, and if they don't do anything take it higher.

I had a very similar experience when taking my fellowship exam - and one of the panel of examiners took a very similar position to your examiner and rubbished my reasoning for using certain practical methods because they were not the ones he had experience of in his lab. However the chair of the panel phoned me the next day - (you got an official letter to say if you had passed or not, it wasn't an on the day thing )- to apologise to me saying that the person was new to the post and had overstepped the mark in his eagerness to show how good he was and invited me to a second viva where the panel couldn't have been nicer and I passed.- perhaps this is what will happen to you. Make the changes and resubmit, but make sure she isn't your examiner second time round

oh, my god, reading this thread is like reading a horror story....I am a new PhDer due to commence my candidature in October. I get fully funded and my supervisor is the director of the research centre that I will be working under. She seems to have high expectations of me because I tried all I could to impress her during the interview. Sometimes I feel a bit insecure about the research, becasue the topic hasn't emerged in full shape yet....and so many stories of break-down, failure, and unreasonable examiners are making me very nervous...:-(

but it's really great that I found this forum where i can see how other PhDers are doing

let me wish everyone, including myself, all the best

Stories like this are very off-putting about the whole of the PhD process and the worth of the degree itself. If this is how people are treated and if the awarding of the degree is down to the idiosyncracy of the person who is the examiner, and nothing to do with the worth and integrity of the work produced, to me it makes the whole value of the degree sort of ...well..worthless, not too put to fine a point to it. When the process is allowed to be hijacked in this manner, it really undermines the whole of the institution of higher education and academia. I realize that nothing is perfect, and that bullies and under-miners lurk everywhere, but really, with degree awarding, there should be a nearly foolproof system of checks and balances that do not let this happen.

======= Date Modified 08 Sep 2008 00:43:04 =======
I agree Olivia...it's very much a case of 'luck of the draw' as to whether one passes a PhD these days...and on that basis, it is CRUCIAL that a person picks examiners that they or supervisor know and respect.



The notion of having only 2 examiners is ridiculous. There should be a panel of 4-5 drawn from various universities, and at least 1-2 should have no connections with the candidate's department. This system would hopefully stop behind the scenes politics and internal examiners being rail-roaded by externals (which seems to be the case described below).



I have said this before.... I do believe academia attracts a disproportionate amount of b*stards and narcissists with little or no people skills (hence why they're in an ivory tower).



Just the fact that examiners can behave badly in vivas is a very bad reflection on the current system. In fact, may be vivas should be recorded so the performance of the candidate and examiners can be used in appeal cases.