I agree with many of our problems being mainly due to the attitudes of others, rather than the intrinsic nature to our work. I realise that although we live in a knowledge economy, knowledge has to be commodifiable (i.e. sellable) in order to participate in this society.

I feel that the skills I picked up in my PhD ARE sellable, there is a mix of quantitative and qualitative skills, and various other things. Yet I am often made to feel that my PhD is a liability rather than an asset. Often people will dismiss my applications (for non-academic jobs) for being overqualified, or expectant that I will be this head-in-the-clouds boffin. I don't believe this is the case, but no one seems to want to give you a chance.

As to comments like "You are being paid to train", my counter-argument is that our contemporaries on graduate schemes, legal training contracts, engineering prgrammes are also in a form of training as well (but with a salary that values them). Quite often they are expected to have FAR less responsibility and fewer expectations placed on them coupled with greater support and guidance.

And I wouldn't mind taking a salary hit if I knew I could make enough to live on. My girlfriend is earning about 24k now (while she does her doctorate), but knows she will jump up to more when she graduates this year. For me a life of short term contracts, constant fighting for funding and insecurity means that I can't think of buying a house, or having a family.

Badhaircut - while I sympathise, we make our own decisions in life and have to take responsibility for them. There are always opportunity costs for decisions that we make. Live with it! It's sunny outside, the cricket is on. Why such negativity? Surely your energy would be better chanelled elsewhere? Sorry to sound so harsh but you just seem determined to be argumentative and negative. Take responsibility for the choices you've made and get out and enjoy life.

I used to have a great channel for my energy. It was called work.



I see a fascinating parallel to my situation and that of nursing students (who currently cant find work due to various professional issues). Most seem united and are interested in getting a better deal for themselves and their colleagues. They protest and their spokespeople lobby the government, but they don't go around telling each other that they are being argumentative, negative and should take responsibility for their poor choices.

My initial intention was initially not to be negative (and I don't think my first post is), but was to ask questions. I now seek some understanding about why academic "grunt workers" like myself, not only roll over and take it, but are complicit in keeping the status quo (by victim blaming, and displays of pointless machismo as witnessed on this thead).

I am not asking for sympathy, I am looking for answers and raising awareness (which is my way of positively engaging with the situation). I am not seeking to argue for the sake of it, but to explore the issues from various perspectives (apart from "Shut up" which seems to be the consensus from both this forum and my academic peers).

Oh my god badhaircut, listen to yourself man! What does your girlfriend think of this? You spitting jealously about her 'amazing' wages just because she chose a different path to you?! I say good for her! She's obviously very talented to get such a rare grant. And you even had a stab at your best friend! Seems to me you're driven by money and you have chosen the wrong career if you want lots of that mate. Your bitterness and seriously cynical attitude is really starting to grate. I do not appreciate you constantly trying to undermine MY decision to do MY phD. I haven't 'rolled over' like a muppet for anyone or anything since I started the project. I know its depressing not having a job but to be honest, doing a PhD is pretty high risk as you NEVER really know what is waiting for you once you've finished.

Q: "What do my gf/ best friend think?"

Ironically, it was my gf who noticed I was despondent when my funding ran out. I felt what I was doing was pointless, etc), and she was able to make me realise that I HAD achieved something in doing a PhD, that I wasn't worthless and was worthy of some respect. Before that I felt guilty and blamed myself for "should have written up by end of year 3 etc". Only afterwards I realise how hostile the system I was working within.

I am not jealous of my gf or best friend. I see myself doing much the same work. I just want to be regarded in an equal way to my contemporaries, and get the same benefits and conditions. Don't you?

Q: "I do not appreciate you constantly trying to undermine MY decision to do MY phD."

I am not doing this intentionally. I think highly of those that research and expand any academic field. My intention is that if we get enough people to ASSERT themselves life would be better for everyone.

Yes I do like recognition but I don't care who gets paid what, I'm on my own journey. What other students get paid is upto them and the bursaries they happen to have applied for. I could've applied for them too probably but I found mine and was quite pleased with it!

Why do we need to assert ourselves? What for? What about? Why are you getting angry about it now, when you've finished and should be focussing on the future? What is the point?!!

I respect that you travel on your own path, and think its great you are happy with your situation. I dont disparage that.

However, it has to be acknowledged that rent, food and all the other messy necessities of life are there, and we as a group should not be living a deprived, fearful, transient lifestyle that makes us vulnerable to the whims of a supervisor.

Its not about the money or being mercenary. I am not asking of £100,000 pound salaries or city bonuses. I am just advocating that PhD students (allegedly societies brightest and best) SHOULD be able sustain themselves, without living on or below the poverty line. That a post doc should be able to buy a house, or enjoy SOME level of job security (more than our short temporary contracts). This is not fantasy land. This used to be the academic life until the 1980s.

If enough people wake up this can change for the better. For all of us.

Why fight?

Because it IS an injustice.
All of you on this board, and everyone reading for a PhD is worth more. We work hard, we do a job that is socially worthwhile (i.e. uni teaching and research)that has huge personal and professional demands. But most of us are not treated like this.


The things I would fight for have been outlined before. First of all I would like academia in general to acknowledge We do have a problem, and sticking our head in the sand is not the way to solve it. Then I would advocate discussions about a good work-life balance, routing out unfair employment terms, some supply and demand management of PhD students/ lecturer places. Is that unreasonable? Or worth fighting for?

Oh, and I AM thinking of the future. My future and your future (if you want to be an academic).

Hi Badhaircut,

I agree with you on several points- when I look around the labs here I see the postdocs that will make it in academia, and those who won't. I also see desperate people- the 40 year old postdoc in our lab- knowing that our supervisor will retire in 5 years. The other postdocs scrambling to get a job in industry. Especially the French scientists, who can't go back to France without a massive track record in Nature/Science papers. If you stay in academia its one big gamble- either you make it- or you get "old" (in the eyes of industry) trying. It frustrates me grately because I love lab work, the seminars, the thinking about the project - but don't think I'll be good enough at the rat race. So industry it will probably be.

Interesting what I have read. I agree that academics in general do not appear to get paid enough. Its not a competition between ourselves, but one between all those other professions which require equivelent training.

There appear to be two main blocks though. 1 is the supply into the profession. medics and dentists etc limit the number of people who can train, which increases the value of these people dramaticly and allows them to demand more pay. PhDs are pretty much 2 a penny, and so with tons of people coming through the system there is no obvious reason to give pay rises. 2 there is limited comercial interest in academic research which means the money has to usually come from the govenment who would much rather give that money to people who will win them votes, such as medics and dentists etc. If academics went on strike it would prob take a while before anyone notices, and indeed before anyone cares.

I have to say I dont think the PhD stipend is too bad, but you do have to put the rest of your life on hold for the PhD (house etc).

While I agree that you should do what you love reguardless of pay, you should still be able to get a fair pay for it.

lucky you i financed my own PhD, no money and pay fees.

This is something that I also find infuriating, that we should ALL get funding, and that it creates a two tier system! Its very unfair in a lot of invisible ways too. I overheard a prof in my ex department before I left talk to a senior manager about how he would never hire a self funded PhD student because "if they werent good enough to get PhD funding they obviously werent good enough to bring in grants".

Sort of a double whammy. I hope his type are in the minority...