cont.
i know i endanger my career by deciding to have a baby. i believe this is true for any moment in time, there is no right time. but am i selfish? that's what my problem is with juno's argument. am i selfish to be wanting it all, career and baby? it being now for me a question of "during the PhD or never": is it selfish to refuse to decide between either/or and rather claim my right to try for both?

about the simple question: tell your supervisor before you start a PhD that you intend to start a family during the same time, or not? well in switzerland there is a law that says, during a job interview it is illegal to ask the interviewee if she is pregnant, or if she intends to become pregnant (don't know if the same law exists over here). i believe there is excellent reason for this law.

i think i understood that you, juno, argue that a PhD is different to a job in this, as it is part of education rather than work. well personally i think a PhD should be seen as work. but even if it is education, why should it be more ok in education than in work?
i honestly intend these sentences as questions, not as rhetoric statements of fact or something.

Shani, I am completly with you on that. I think a PhD is work but in the UK it seems to be treated more as education - so I think it is a back ground thing. However, after getting used to the idea that I am having a baby I actually think the PhD is the best time ever. As long as you are not planning to work with radioactives etc you can still work - you can work ahead while you have your good times and nobody really cares if you are in 30min lates as you could not get up in the morning (by the way I am always the first in the office and the next ones to come are the other mothers the guys and single girls usually arrive at 11 still not awake).

In a job I have worked before my boss got pregnant (planned) right in the middle of a huge project with needed to be finished to a deadline. She went off work 4 weeks before her due date and came back 6 month after - I had finished the project by then. To be honest this had more impact on everyone around then me doing my stupid PhD with is of no intrest to anyone but myself. Yes, I am part of a bigger project but in all honesty nobody will really be bothered whether they get the work in time or not as they won't deliver in time as they never do.

On the other hand the funding bodies will not refuse further funding because if you go over the four years because of matenity leave, illness etc the time does not count, it basically does not pass by ( I am going to be living in a timeless whole - do my wrinkles stop coming as well? )
I do understand you juno but I think not everybody is in teh position to wait three years and not everyone wants to. I don't think it has major impact on other people but perhaps you should try not to opt for a project where every day counts but then even if you not plan it can happen or you get ill, or you cannot get the results for. Live is not as planable as it would be nice to be but thats live And I still think I would not tell my supervisor in the interview: Hey and by the way I won't babies. It would make a strange impression and would be out of place and you draw attention to something they should know can happen anyway.
ok was this the longest post ever?

Shani, I think it's great that you are planning now, and contrary to what others have said, I still think it's more feasible to become pregnant and have a bay during a PhD that with other contracted research posts.

It can take a healthy couple in their 20s up to a year to conceive. The odds become less favourable in 30s. Juno is right in that no one is an island and that decisions re. pregnancy don't just affect the couple conncerned - of course it affects others. But that doesn't apply just to PhD study - it applies to everything. If you work to the "PhD or planned pregnancy" rule, you have to apply it to all kinds of other careers, and in this day and age that's simply not acceptable. I accept that education in the sense of being at school is not an advisable time to become pregnant, but a PhD is different, and a stage by which women can, and should be able to make that call depending on what's right for them.

I think that's great that you are planning now Shani if it's right for you and I'd like to join you and say I am too! In a perfect world I would have had had a baby and then effortlessly moved into a PhD but people's lives are not maps that can be drawn and enacted. I think if Universities were asked they would be keen to emphasise that they offer education to a wide sample of the population, particularly perhaps at PhD level. I have met three women in the last 9 months all doing PhDs either with pre-existing families or pregnant or having had a child during that time.

So if anyone was feeling concerned about how they would be treated they should approach student services and discuss it for reassurance. I agree with all the comments Kronkodile, Oz. I think the idea that you just should not apply for a PhD because of some idea you will affect others if you become pregnant is strange. It's a dangerous argument because you could apply it to a whole section of people who might have to take time off because of illness, or a pre-existing disability.

Apart from the fact that I think somebody under 18 (absolut minimum) should not get pregnant in the first place - whether they are in education or not (I know accidents happen)

PS Shani - your question about whether it is more ok for those unfunded. I think it doesn't matter and as I said, if you are funded some award bodies give 6 months maternity like the AHRC. They don't however inform students beforehand - you only find out when you get the manual. Thus I was going to do it unfunded and part-time and start a family. I think the real difference sadly is that it is probably financially harder if you're not funded and that's what those who would criticise maternity pay for students should note. That it's rare.

All the opinions mentioned are all reasonable (i think i see an agreement lurking in the shadows) I also believe a woman does not become incapable of doing her job, be it a PhD or not when she becomes pregnant as sassy pointed out. Nevertherless, i still maintain it does put a degree of strain (whether you admit it or not) on whatever your endeavours are (like in oz's instance) If you are funded in the UK, my understanding is that you do get some time off and you funding still carries on. This might not be the case in some other countries, hence the debate about considering other candidtes if a woman intends to get pregnant during her PhD.
Having said all this, i believe that it is possible to bring up a family during this period (though it won't be easy) and would not dicourage any woman that would want to do this if theu have got the means covered e.g finances etc

I think you're right Cyrogenics. It's been a very interesting debate I think! It will be tough and it's important to know this. It is also worth knowing what financially you would be entitled to if you are making such a decision. I checked out maternity pay if unfunded and it just doesn't exist for students in the UK (I'm fairly sure that's right but then Unis might have their own funds available - would be interesting to know). Creches at Uni are where I am anyway slightly subsidised. And the AHRC will continue to fund for 6 months whilst on maternity leave, the six months added on to the 3 year funded figure.

sassy, if you are unfunded you get £130/week social benefits as far as I am aware. I read it somewhere on the page with all the child benefits. perhaps that helps.
It was a really intresting discussion, I agree - do we have to stop? It is the most liveliest part of the forum at the moment it seems

Oh, we don't have to stop

Pregnancy should be joyous ocassion in ones life, regardless of when it happens. The life a woman brings into the world, i think, i worth more than anything. When the baby comes out (forgive my word use) i think all the stress (from child-birth and a PhD) and troubles would seem insignificant.