"I can sort myself out thanks."

I suspect this is the sort of attitude that has lead to the situation we currently have. This callous, unempathic "Im-alright-Jack" style behaviour means that the rest of us suffer.

Just because you are fine doesnt mean that everyone else is. If I was the only phD/post doc to have this experience, then I would concede your point. But unfortunately, I am not the only one.

FYI, £12k a year (for only 3 years when PhDs often go on for more) is NOT enough to live in the capital or major British cities (esp. if you have a family). Rent alone is about half of that.Then food, travel, and the small matter of living.

No, you've missed the point!
I wasn't saying 'I'm alright jack' (I resent this comment alot!!!), I'm saying yes I am ok and I don't need you fighting my corner at this time! If I want help I'll ask for it! You're assuming everyone is working in a hell hole and needs saving. Just because you've had a harsh time of it, why is everyone else?!

FYI, 12k is enough. Myself and my colleagues work very close to London and we manage! Most without pt work and they have families.

I have probably missed most of this conversation, but have a few comments to throw in the ring...

Firstly, the diversity issue has been discussed here previously (and quite heatedly) a few months ago. The experience at my current University (some people can guess where that is, tough if you can't!) is quite different from what you describe. First of all, most people I live with are poor; I'd say a lot of affluent middle class students go on to be investment bankers or something to keep up that lifestyle, leaving those who really enjoy their subject. My flat mates are from the North of England (not the most affluent area...), Southern Europe (not too much money there unless you own a hotel) etc. Most in my department are quite normal (and yes we do have black academics too), though I guess that's somewhat due to the field I study, and if you went into the Classics Department for example you might find a different type of student there.

I can also give you the 'I'm the only one in my family ever to go to University, my brothers work in a warehouse and my parents have 2 GCEs and a lot of debt between them and yet I still got where I am today' speech to show you I'm also not the typical middle class PhD student.

Finally (phew!), I think my stipend is enough to live on (though I'm lucky to be funded and don't have kids etc); I can afford my rent, decent food and a few beers, though I get told off for not saving more.

But barhaircut, I think anything that can be done to highlight the plight of those less fortunate than me is a very good thing. But as has already been mentioned here, it can't all be blanket-applied to every PhD student.

Thanks,

@laurzf1: I apologise if I have misunderstood you and don't mean to cast aspersions on you directly. I was commenting on a prevailing attitude I notice, not you as a person.

You may not need help now (or ever), and I hope this stays throughout your academic career. However, If things did change in the way I suggest, I supsect would you be happier and better off.

@thecoastman: I missed the prior debate. My loss. Again, I reiterate, that I was talking from my own experience, and am exploring this issue (alongside several others) to seek some answers. Thanks for giving me your experiences and thoughts, and am glad that there is some diversity and am reminded that I should try to get to that kind of place.

Cont'd

As regards to finance. Although I do see food, rent (and even beer)as important, I am aware that there are other things like pension contributions that I am behind most people. My uni did not pay contributions to the state pension, and I am not sure if this is the norm. Also I can't even think about saving for a deposit for a house or if anything goes wrong, I have nothing for an emergency. The few savings I had were used up supporting me through my 4th PhD year/write up.

I have tried to be financially savvy, but I still have a large Student Loans debt hanging over me from my undergrad days, which I have deferred but still accrues interest, which scares me.

I regard this financial situation as "hand to mouth", and that people can work 60 hr weeks and be like this needs to be challenged. Perhaps others see it differently.

Again, I agree to an extent.
sometimes though I find myself humbled. I mean, if today you own stuff worth in total 1000$, you are part of the richer half of the world. Looking from that perspective, sometimes I feel instead of fighting petty battles about earning a little more or less, it would be much more important to address the large issues of global inequality.
But then again, I do not accept the argument that other people are even worse off than I am, to stop me critizising that some people are better off than I am for no real reason. I can and will critizise things when I feel what I am doing is not being valued. That other people are worse off does not make this less wrong.

Oh, and btw I'm glad there is this thread. I think nobody believes the "system" is perfect. So it's good to think about it and discuss. Who else if not we? I also see that it is obviously very emotional because it impacts on what many of us strongly identify as, on what we "are", our identities and life decisions. Not easy!

Hello BadHairCut,
It is impossible to change the system unless the whole economic systems changes. Current academic system is the result of the economic system in which it is embedded, where education/research gets low budget compared to other economic activities.

Even if you manage to get a better payment for PhD students, it does not change much their overall situation. They will continue working (most of them) in an alienate way, doing what their supervisors want or is convenient for them, not for PhD students. They have no control over their life. When student and supervisor interests coincide it is wonderful but it happens little.

People in academic postitions or as PhD student believe they are doing the best thing in the world, kind of being the few ones who shed light over misguided and ignorant masses. This believe is so strong that they ignore many things outside academia, further perpetuating the myth of doing the best thing!!

It is a hopeless circle

Although I can see it being linked to the economy, certain things dont make sense. Not so long ago (1980s), PhD/Postdocs were doing okay, and things were not THAT different. In fact, with the proliferation of mass higher education surely we would have more demand to teach, work in uni's etc?

Maybe if undergraduate tuition fees were uncapped it could help pay for those higher up the chain? Not ideal I know, but it seems to work better in the US, where this happens.

The lack of control is an issue, but if the university administration sets a "contract" (hours, expectations, working conditions) maybe this could treat the worse excesses of some supervisors?

Not sure if I agree with the "best thing in the world" or "ignorant masses", but I accept that they may perpetuate the cycle. Which means we have to work harder to educate those incoming.