Unemployed :(
I think I may have a few things in common with you, kathryn. I am certainly introverted, a bit older, got a mortgage and not wanting to move around too much to chase jobs. I am still doing my PhD, and am not at all sure what the jobs market will have for me at the end of it. I hear you about hating having to sell yourself for poorly-paid jobs you could do standing on your head. Like HazyJane said though, getting a foot in the door with something more stable sounds a lot better than where you are now. It is frustrating that there aren't better options, but I think you would feel better even from having a steady and reliable income, which would take away some of the pressure you're feeling now. Unfortunately, we do all have to sell our personalities to a certain extent at interview (there's the famous line about interviewers deciding in the first 15 seconds whether they like us or not) so in the past I've just psyched myself up and gone for it - it gets easier with practice.
i can understand kathryn, at some point in your life you reach a stage where you'd had enough of kissing ass, even the elaborate forms as faking a job interview. you start getting interested in some quality of life, like mortgage and permanent contracts and not wanting to display 'flexibility' i.e. moving country on some arbitrary person's whim just for the sake for a job. you'd just want to be a normal person doing a normal job alined to your qualifications and getting an ok compensation without going through all the additional brainfuck. that's it. why should you have to put up with all the additional hassle. and i agree with her that plenty people sail through life like that. what of all the oxbridge ponces getting it all served on a plate despite some being distinctly mediocre. somehow no one gives them advice on how to be more 'bubbly'. there's selling your soul and there's wanting to have some dignity. those who are inclined to the latter will continue to get told they have to kiss ass/be bubbly because this is the way to do it, apparently, and it's us having the wrong 'attitude'.
in addition, the uk is fairly anti-intellectual. also something one shouldn't say too loud. hence the suspicion towards phds; it being a low-wage economy doesn't help. the british don't know what to do with their educated people, it's not that it's too many with them. there's a lack of phantasy and political will to find employment possibilities for higher educated folks. look at all the wonderful quality of life that could come out of that. but no, can't have that.
however, being a foreigner, i will 'bugger off' to my own country where you still can get a lousy job without having to have 3 references and a criminal record check. i mean really. there are alternatives. i have had no problems finding very good jobs in other continental countries with my 'attitude'. here: zero.
What you say is maybe true but let's be honest, it is "as advertised". Everybody knows about these conditions and it has been at least the last 20 years like this. People just tend to ignore negative aspects and are optimistic about the future and if it then turns out to be as bad as everyone told, we start to complain about it ;)
I disagree about a lack of fantasy. It is not the job of government or industry to come up with employment possibilities. That can't be the answer to an oversupply of scientists. Just compare how many people pursue a PhD today and compare it with the 1990s or 2000. There is a constant increase.
And it is not UK specific. It is literally everywhere difficult to find a job as a post doc. However, most people find something in the end....even if it takes them 1 year of search...
Hi Kathryn
Well done on getting your PhD and having spent 4 years teaching at your University and also having the qualifications and experience necessary to be an effective secondary teacher.
I am sensing a lot of psychological resistance to your situation.
You have to accept your life as it is right now.
All these comments like "I am an introvert and therefore can't do this and that" and "why should I have to do this and that" are negative and confrontational.
Life is not won through negativity or confrontation.
You have to accept your life as it is, otherwise you cannot overcome it.
Say "I accept my life" and "I accept whatever the universe throws at me".
This is the only way for you to unlock your latent power to overcome your obstacles.
Do this. Don't try to change you or your life. Accept your life. If you are kind to your life then your life will be kind to you.
Once you have done this the answer will come to you. The answer may not come straight away. Accept your life over and over until you have the answer. Then do it again.
No-one else can give you the answer.
Only when you accept the unvierse for what it is can you understand how to integrate it and bend it to your will.
Kathryn - however hard it is, I think you have to move on from wanting an academic job. Others have said that if you are seeing everything you go for as an unappetising plan B, then you're probably not presenting yourself as well as you can, and I think although the message is hard, they're right. Can you step back from defining yourself by your qualifications and think about what elements you'd want in a job to be happy? Maybe if you applied for things you'd like to do, rather than things you think you ought to apply for because of the fit with your background, it would be less of a stretch to be enthusiastic in an interview. That 'what colour is your parachute book' is irritating in many ways but maybe working through something like that would help you to think more positively about your options.
No idea what sort of research you did, or what type of industry there is where you live (and if staying there is important as it clearly is to you, then that is a life choice - one that might limit things but we all know there are pay-offs in life) but how about university administrative jobs (rationale - there are some interesting ones and they are open to employing PhDs), scientific civil service (again lots of Phds), are you close enough to retrain slightly as a data scientist for the big data jobs? Or might you like teaching better if it was f/t in a school of your choosing? There's a shortage of maths teachers apparently and a comp sci friend did a subject enhancement course to let him teach maths, so that might be an option.
Sorry to sound harsh but you spent a lot of time, energy and money studying for a PhD in something you don't sound in the slightest bit interested in.
That's like saying a cancer researcher has no interest in science because they have no interest in becoming a lab technician for a company that produces lipstick. It's all science and it's all the same, right?
Equally, my lack of interest in the commonly advertised entry level IT jobs (which tend to be mostly computer repair, web development and programming) is in no way indicative of a lack of interest in my specific PhD subject. I'd love a job in my specific field but they're hard to come by. So I apply for generic IT jobs because that's all that's available, and I think my lack of enthusiasm comes across to employers. I would take one of these generic jobs for the money, and would work hard but wouldn't really care about my work beyond the paycheck. To me that seems fine because most people don't love their jobs and only work for the money. But for some reason employers want you to be totally thrilled about a job installing Microsoft Office updates and replacing cables. Yes, it's still technically an IT job, but it's as different from my chosen field as cancer research is from developing lipstick.
Re. the academia vs. industry issue - "if" I want an industry job is not a question I have the luxury of considering. I must have a job to pay the bills. I can't get an academic job, therefore industry is my only option. Even if I hate it, I have to do it for the money. I have to apply for programming and computer repair jobs even though I have absolutely no interest, because my qualifications are in IT and those are the only jobs available that I'm qualified for. Unfortunately this lack of interest is obvious to employers.
I think you have to move on from wanting an academic job. Others have said that if you are seeing everything you go for as an unappetising plan B, then you're probably not presenting yourself as well as you can.
I have moved on from wanting an academic job. I've accepted that I won't get one. But this acceptance has come at the price of realising that my PhD was a total waste of time, effort and money. I'm very bitter at having wasted years of my life essentially training for an academic job that never materialised.
You're right, I do see the jobs I apply for as an unappetising Plan B, because they're basic jobs which require very few skills - that's all that's available, and it just emphasises the fact that my PhD was a total waste of time. I'd feel better if I was applying for jobs that actually provided some intellectual challenge and prospects, and which were even remotely related to my skills and experience. Instead I'm applying for any job I think I might stand a chance of getting, even if I already know I'd hate it, and my only motivation is money. I already I know I can cope with forcing myself to do something I hate for money, because I've been doing it for four years already. I regularly cry because I'm so underpaid and badly treated with no prospects, but it keeps me off benefits so I force myself to continue. I'd just like more security and full-time hours, so I keep applying for other jobs. However, I can't even secure a job I don't want, because I "lack commercial experience" and I'm obviously not interested in the job. Apparently just wanting money isn't a good enough reason to have applied...
I totally get that you wanted to go into academia and it's disappointing that you haven't made it. But, there are tonnes of computing jobs which would relish someone who has a PhD and are interesting and fulfilling - i.e. not tech support related positions. Heck, there are loads of industry-based research positions available too (e.g. Microsoft Research, BAE, Thales, etc.)
I'm doing a PhD in Computer Science and am working as an academic at the same time. Most of my friends who have done PhDs in Computer Science are now in awesome, fulfilling and interesting jobs that use their skills. I'm surprised you have been unable to find anything that interests you. Where are you looking? Do academics in your old uni have any contacts in industry? The undergrads must be getting jobs from somewhere... can't they help you out?
[quote] my PhD was a total waste of time, effort and money. .
This is never, ever, EVER the case.
A PhD provides you with an absolute plethora of life skills which any employer would be gagging for, in my opinion.
Stop seeing a PhD as an academic qualification, and more as a set of amazing skills which you can take into any interview.
No shame in admitting you did a PhD because you had a passion for the subject, but now you've decided to utilise these skills elsewhere in forging a new career.
A PhD will NEVER be useless. Ever.
Do academics in your old uni have any contacts in industry?
I don't really have any contact with academics at my old uni. My PhD supervisor actually left for a new job before I even finished my PhD; she was supposed to be like a "distance supervisor" until I finished writing up, but once she'd started her new job she wasn't interested in me any more and just ignored all of my emails and efforts to contact her. In the end I was given sort of a locum supervisor to help me finish writing up and get through the viva. This obviously hindered my efforts to get an academic job as my supervisor didn't help me via her contacts, and when I applied for jobs by myself she just ignored all requests for a reference. The last research paper I published still had to have her name as an author because she had supervised the experiments, and it was reported to me that she was overheard telling people she had no involvement with me or the work, and it was only a technicality that her name was on it.
I'm not aware of undergraduates receiving any help in finding jobs either; I've bumped into a number of undergraduates whom I personally taught and who were unemployed or under-employed. Those who had jobs seemed to have got them by themselves with no help from the university; many of them had been forced to move away and when I bumped into them they had only come home for Christmas.
The major difficulty for myself (and for undergraduates too) is that there are very few big employers in the local area and the majority of advertised jobs are for technicians or for programmers in small businesses. There is certainly nowhere that has ever advertised a research vacancy. I'm hundreds of miles away from anywhere like Microsoft Research or BAE, and can't move due to family commitments.
[quote] my PhD was a total waste of time, effort and money. .
This is never, ever, EVER the case.
A PhD provides you with an absolute plethora of life skills which any employer would be gagging for, in my opinion.
Stop seeing a PhD as an academic qualification, and more as a set of amazing skills which you can take into any interview.
No shame in admitting you did a PhD because you had a passion for the subject, but now you've decided to utilise these skills elsewhere in forging a new career.
A PhD will NEVER be useless. Ever.
Come on.... I get that you want to encourage and support but this statement is just silly.
She didn't decide to use the skills elsewhere, she is forced to. Why do people always have to roll everything in glitter and sell every failure as an success? I have the feeling that some people have to tell themselves that it is never useless because it is simply hard to accept that you didn't need the PhD for the job you have. A way to justify all the hard work even though it did not lead to a job you wanted. Most people don't pursue a PhD for the PhD's sake but because they want to work as scientists. I fully understand that one is bitter if that doesn't work out after all the sacrifice and hard work. I would feel the exact same way. She took the risk and it didn't work. That's bitter, but that's how it is. Nothing to be ashamed of. Now you can only try to do some damage limitation. Life skills don't pay the mortgage or piano lessons.
I respectfully disagree.
Yes we can regret spending the money, spend the 3 years (or longer), and the stress. That's fine to regret that.
I still maintain, however, that personal and professional skills will never be taken away from you post-PhD. It's not a case of polishing a turd, if you'll excuse the expression. I just can't envisage ever seeing my PhD skills/experience as a negative thing.
Sure, if I end up working in retail where not even a Bachelors is required, I'd think "why on earth did I bother?", but I'd still be subconsciously using the skills I'd picked up along the way.
Intellectually, the PhD might never be useful again, but a PhD is so much more than that.
The major difficulty for myself (and for undergraduates too) is that there are very few big employers in the local area and the majority of advertised jobs are for technicians or for programmers in small businesses. There is certainly nowhere that has ever advertised a research vacancy. I'm hundreds of miles away from anywhere like Microsoft Research or BAE, and can't move due to family commitments.
Ah okay. Well, this is the crux of the problem then. If you want a good job in industry that uses your skills then you'll probably have to move to where those industries are based. It's the same for the undergrads too. Frankly, even if you want a job in academia you'd almost certainly have to move. Otherwise, you're going to have to try to get enthusiastic about the lower-level jobs that are available to you.
It's absolutely fine to prioritise your family commitments. But unless you happen to live in a big metropolis, or somewhere that there is industry around, then you're not likely to get both. I live in a small Northern city in the UK, but there are a few CS companies around. The PhD students who want to stay in the area, all work for those companies even if the work isn't exactly what they want to do, they do it so they can stay here.
Do none of the undergrads at your uni go on placement? I'm so surprised there aren't career support facilities available.
I get that this is frustrating and disappointing. But, in all your responses I'm feeling an overwhelming sense of negativity and defeat. You want to stay in your current area. So get enthusiastic about that. And persuade people that you are the best person for the job. Even if you don't love the job, you get to stay where you want to be. That's something to get excited about.
Kathryn,
Dare I say, been there got the T-shirt. I ended up in your situation due to a very poor post-doc experience at a Uni. other than my PhD Uni. I'll not bore people with the story, however, I took on what was meant to be a "moving on" 2nd post-doc away from my PhD Uni., I fell out with a post-doc assigned with my mentor and ultimately the project leading Prof. I left without a reference, making my job hunting especially difficult. Put simply, my face didn't fit and they should never have employed me as I was not suited to the post.
The feelings you are having are vitually the same as mine back then. I felt that what I had to offer was worthless and I had a skills set no-one wanted. I attacked the jobs market for both academic and real world posts. The responses you'll recognise, in that I was too academically oriented, I would move on as soon as something better came along or I'd find the job boring.
In the end, I restructured my CV to emphasise my real world skills, demoting my academic achivements largely to the second page. I also learnt how to better sell myself. Wording in CVs and interviews should be about what you achieved and what positive outcomes resulted, rather than about "what you did". I made the language more positive and saleable as well. I had per-PhD industrial experience to fall back on, helping me to finally land a job albeit outside academia.
A further factor was I was called back to my PhD Uni. for some unpaid work, which helped reset my references. You have teaching experience, thus you might become a trainer in industry.
One key difference between you and I. I never regreted the PhD iitself, an orignal contribution, new knowledge, the reasons I did a PhD. And all that fun kit to play with too I never thought I have the chance to use. No regrets!!!
Ian
[quote] my PhD was a total waste of time, effort and money. .
This is never, ever, EVER the case.
A PhD provides you with an absolute plethora of life skills which any employer would be gagging for, in my opinion.
Stop seeing a PhD as an academic qualification, and more as a set of amazing skills which you can take into any interview.
No shame in admitting you did a PhD because you had a passion for the subject, but now you've decided to utilise these skills elsewhere in forging a new career.
A PhD will NEVER be useless. Ever.
Come on.... I get that you want to encourage and support but this statement is just silly.
She didn't decide to use the skills elsewhere, she is forced to. Why do people always have to roll everything in glitter and sell every failure as an success? I have the feeling that some people have to tell themselves that it is never useless because it is simply hard to accept that you didn't need the PhD for the job you have. A way to justify all the hard work even though it did not lead to a job you wanted. Most people don't pursue a PhD for the PhD's sake but because they want to work as scientists. I fully understand that one is bitter if that doesn't work out after all the sacrifice and hard work. I would feel the exact same way. She took the risk and it didn't work. That's bitter, but that's how it is. Nothing to be ashamed of. Now you can only try to do some damage limitation. Life skills don't pay the mortgage or piano lessons.
Why consign her to the dustbin when she can still get what she wants?
Why consign her to the dustbin when she can still get what she wants?
A permanent challenging position in academia after 4 years out of science in that certain part of the UK where she lives? I doubt it. But I am pretty sure that she can find a decent job at a company but as others already said, this probably won't be the position she wanted to have.
I respectfully disagree.
Yes we can regret spending the money, spend the 3 years (or longer), and the stress. That's fine to regret that.
I still maintain, however, that personal and professional skills will never be taken away from you post-PhD. It's not a case of polishing a turd, if you'll excuse the expression. I just can't envisage ever seeing my PhD skills/experience as a negative thing.
There is a difference between "negative" and "useless". Experiences and skills are always great, but if I'm not using them then I could easily live without them. Living on the street would maybe also teach me a lot and would change my perspective. Almost everything you do results in experiences that are valuable in one way or another.
I am pretty sure she will see it more positive when she finally finds a well paid job but so far the PhD was rather a disadvantage, which is of course frustrating and a justified reason to regret the decision to start a PhD. It would be completely lunatic to not consider that as a wrong life choice. It's just human to think like that.
