The name thing is emotional, because it is so personal. I think, despite my own views on my own name, that people should take or use whatever name best suits them and their own identity. Because a name is about identity, its personal, and just because I had and have a certain view on what I want to be called does not mean I mind if other people have another view. I DO mind when people do not respect my choice.

That was far more of an issue when I was married, when people deliberately decided to ignore that I had not taken my husband's name and called me Mrs Husband. That bothered me. Also, when my ex and I were discussing having kids, I made the point also made on here about surnames, that if I did all the work, surely the child should have my last name and not his! I said his last name would make a great first name, which it would have. His reasons for wanting a child to have his last name were so that his name would continue, etc, and I said, why is that any less valid for me than for you?

We never did have kids, but that was not because of the name issues!

That said, studies show the most traditional marriages are the ones that last the longest ( at least in the US), but that should be interpreted with caution, because just because a marriage lasts does not mean its successful in that, are the people in it happy? That is the measure of a successful relationship--not mere longevitiy.

@ PCGeek - I didn't mean double-barrelled names in general... obviously if your family name has been double-barrelled for generations that's a completely different matter! When I said it I was actually thinking of someone I know who got married and then decided they would stick together two surnames that don't even match or sound well together... probably because they thought it would sound posh, but like you said that's not necessarily so!

Olivia, can "Happiness" really be the measure of "success" of marriage? If we look at the historic meaning of marriage as an institution, it rarely provided happiness, rather financial stability to raise children.

In my opinion, marriage is a relict of the past and doesn't work these days. Hence the exorbitant divorce rates in Western countries. Do couples really need to be married to be happy and to provide stability for their children? And in some Islamic countries, marriage perhaps only continues to exist because of limited rights for women.

'However, if a woman sees her life-goal as marriage and babies then I really don't think that should be slated, it's a perfectly noble occupation.'

No.. it shouldn't be slated - that is unless the woman is *that* obsessed with the idea that she marries a well known arsehole just so she can get the ring on her finger and babies and *that's* what I meant.

Not everyone, male or female wants a 'career', there is nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with personal choice, being a housewife / househusband or mother / Father... However, I think there is something wrong when people start sacrificing their morals and respect for themselves.

Example... 2 people with PhDs and careers, both nice people, marry, have kids and the woman gives up work - nothing wrong with that if that's what they want...

Next example... 2 people, he beats her up, cheats on her and when she is leaving, he proposes - she is so desperate for marriage and babies she accepts - I'd say that was wrong but hey... their life, just not something I would want..

Agree with you there, Olivia: I often think the same way when I hear peope (usually bishops or Conservative MPs) state that married couples tend to stay together longer than unmarried couples. Yes, but why is that necessarily a good thing? They may not be any happier, but feel unable to move on because of the cost or messiness involved in legal divorce proceedings. That's an unhappier situation to be in, especially for any children involved.

Well happiness may not be the best measure of success of a marriage, I suppose it depends on how you define success....happiness is perhaps only a Western modern sort of view of it. Some cultures might say a marriage failed if the woman did not give birth to a son or many sons. I think in Western modern cultures to equate success of a marriage with longevity is inaccurate, but it seems to be one of the measures we hear of time and again.

hate the short word count in these...anyway...

Marriage as an institution is a complicated issue. I think that if traditional marriages are the ones that survive ( whether successfully howsoever defined or no) that says that it is an institution not equipped to deal with the modern demands of Western life. ( am narrowly only talking in a most Euro-Amerocentric sense of marriage, I admit!)

Although my marriage did not last, I will say I enjoyed being married.I had many of my happiest days being married. My partner and I lived together for four years before we married, and there WAS something very different in being married than in living together.

Marriage is or can be different than living together...in ways good and bad. My marriage experienced both. That said, I did like as I said, being married...why? I liked the commitment, the sharing of our lives on that deeper level, of being that special to someone that they said they wanted to spend the rest of their life with me. Yes, you can have those things without marriage. Marriage, as names, is an intensely personal choice, and what we bring to it as individuals is very different from person to person.

Need coffee...will stop rambling...but I think its hard to generalise on names and marriage and etc...because of the individual values and history and identity so wrapped up in each of these. I just ask that people respect my choices, as I am glad to respect theirs, whether or not its the choice I would have made.

If you don't mind my curiosity, what was the difference? I need to know before I committ either mistake.

The diff between marriage and living together?? Well, I think for some people there is a deep unconcious and unrecognised way they think that men and women should relate once married...that may not surface whilst living together. Marriage is a "loaded" institution--it carries a lot of social norms and weight, and I think to say those do not affect people is naive...they do. We might elect to ignore them, disregard them, whatever, but they ARE there.

On the plus side, I thought being married was "sweet". I liked it, I liked it in the sense of how it feels to be inside on a winters day with a nice fire in a fireplace, watching an old black and white film. Don't know how else to describe it on this forum, really, but it was just a feeling of sweet contentment and happiness that was different than that of the living together.

Living together was fine...no problems. Marriage meant more of a commitment though...and of course this is a very individuated experience and so other people might have very different thoughts. This is just what MY experience was. On the negative side, marriage seems to bring out more gendered expectations...of the traditional sort. If you are comfortable with those, that might not be a problem. In my case, where I was not wanting to fulfill roles based on gender, it was a problem.