i'm a loser, because while all my friends went into jobs after their masters, be it within academia, as doctoral researchers, or outside - i just went on to being a student again. obviously i'm not good enough for anything else.
but as i said, this sort of negative thinking/feeling happens mainly when i'm not doing well anyway. normally i'm quite confident and see "being a student" just as a formality, a label that others attach to me but with which i do not identify much. i'm fairly mature, have held positions of responsibility in the outside world, where i had to make much more important decisions - such as "do i need to fire this guy who is a father of four and really needs this job?" or "do we need to close this branch (and lay off all employees) in order to save the company as a whole?" and so i know that who i am and if i am "good" or not does not depend on the label student or not.

i realize that my issues with being/not being a student are culturally specific and maybe to a certain extent just "me". i'd also like to say that my negative associations with being a student have nothing to do with denying that a PhD is a learning experience. obviously i'm learning. obviously i don't know it all. but i think that all researchers should think of themselves as learning. i for one would consider the day on which i stopped learning a sad day indeed. but there are different levels of learning. and in my background, the term student applies specifically to bachelor and master students, not so much to doctoral researchers; that's why it raises complicated associations for me.

shani - I am interested in this topic of course and it does relate to my research but only in a confirmative/disconfirmative way. None of you will be in my thesis or quoted.

A few have hit the nail on the head with the aspect of being thought by the majority of their PhD student colleagues as lecturers because they are not 20 something. My point of inquiry is can it only be an age thing or is their an aura around those who have been (and I use other commenters term) out 'in the real world' and don't behave as a submissive individual and so feel uneasy in the sterotypical 'only a student' identity.

The postgraduate identity doesn't cut it either, 'cos I was one of those during my MBA. The delineation between PhDs and masters isn't as clear cut as it might be - which strikes at my point I guess

Walminskipeasucker - if my supervisor 'went mad at me' for anything I would be out the door with the wind blowing in my hair/arrogance.

Let me share a little import from 'the real world' with you. Whether you set up and run a multi million pound industry or form a partnership with a turnover of a few thou a year, the people you are reliant on, work WITH you not FOR you. I see the supervisor - student relationship as the same. My supervisors have to want the same thing as I do - to pass and I expect, nay demand they do everything they are capable of to make that happen. I in return comply with institutional requirements to the best of my ability so everyone is a winner.

I just don't feel like a student and wondered if anyone else shared this mismatch

Both my supers are long term public sctor advocates which has been a problem in the past - I'm a bit of a maverick in their eyes and certainly not an obedient submissive student. Alas we have drawn in the sand where we will never meet politically and it works.

Entrepreneur, I'm a little taken aback by what you said, and a little upset at the same time. It would appear to me that you have overanalysed what I said and have, in turn, responded with what is quite possibly one of the more patronising and anal responses that I have read in some time. 'Real world'? 'With you'? and 'not for you'? Erm, cheers for sharing your wisdom, pal. I'm sorry and apologise I posted on your thread and gave you my view, but please don't start making random assertions about me (arrogance?). Good look in your pretentious search for your personal identity - I hope you don't find it's f*&%t.

oh dear! It was not my intention to upset or offend. I certainly wasn't trying to patronise. Your contribution was not unwelcome and I hope not wasted as others read - but keep silent. We are all here discussing what the nuts and bolts are and personal slants are ... well just that! Best to keep them out of the wider context. Don't you agree?

A thousand apologies my inscrutable chap.

Walm - it is me who is perceived as arrogant because I don't do what is expected - not you although I would tip my hat to you if you were equally demonised in the academic community. It's not that I think they are lesser or my type are greater it's simply that the doctoral field is no longer a straightforward scientific/industialist divide. Believe me - we need them as much if not more than they need us.

My point of refelection is in how we play our respective cards as people - academic truth seeking researchers and what passes for worthwile researchers. I'm on the climb for justification in social sciences, not the accepted wisdom of what is regarded as natural science. You know it figures in who we regard ouselves as...

I'm sorry. That I've been responding so quickly reflects the fact that I've been watching your thread very closely, as I feel strongly about your comments. I posted an ill considered comment which, in the midst of the more serious and well thought out comments, deserved to be chided. Given that you have still taken the trouble to explain yourself to me, I'd like to apologise for being puerile.

I've been on this forum for years, but what I read here on this thread makes me wonder why. Some people appear to have serious issues with being called "students". Sorry, but whatever you're all trying to say, someone doing a PhD is a student, nothing more, nothing less, in that particular capacity and regardless of any additional job, teaching activities, age or maturity. These are additional factors and, as such, different capacities. We assume multiple roles if we teach and learn, but in the latter capacity we are students. And that's nothing to have an issue about. Some level of humility does not harm if one pursues acquisition of knowledge. Of course we don't work for supervisors, but we should be open enough to be still willing to learn, even if we are former CEOs of Pepsi Cola!

To be honest Jouri, I share your perspective. Whichever way I try and dress my roles, I still appear a student. However, and please don't let me sound corny here, if this thread teaches us anything, it's that being a PhD student is a relative concept with phenomenological foundations. It is the 'lived experience' that dicates how PhD individuals see themselves. Now I've just written a load of pop-philosophical crap but that's because I'm tired, have been reading journal articles all day (with no progress!) and am about to go to bed. zzzzzzzz

Interesting point, but before we dig deeper into the phenomenonological stuff, I rather go to bed too. I'll probably dream of my self-created reality. In fact, that's what life boils down too.

entrepreneur
wish i had that luxury and courage, to storm out for everytime my supervisor got angry with me and shouted at me, and basically belittled me. unfortunately its not seen as an equal partnership, but him being the boss and your the captive hostage, compiling with everything he says and taking it, because you feel you have no power against him because he holds your phd in his hands.

but i like your idea that in an ideal world it "should" be an equal partnership.

jouri, I am the first to admit I still have so much to learn about the world and especially about the academic world so you are absolutely correct. Humility is a virtue, not a form of defeat.

walm - apology not necessary but the intent is appreciated nonetheless and I too have succumbed to the reply in a hurry syndrome when I read something that stirs me.