@Shani: I think your partner (in economics) is representative of a subgroup that are hybrid industry/academic types. Economics is a field where the majority want to go to work within industry (banking etc),as it is so well paid etc. This means there is a relative lack of people willing to do academic work, because its comparatively less well renumerated. In my field it is similar to clinical psychologists (who arent PhDs), who always seem to have the better paid uni jobs and more of them available.

@Matt: "Is the PhD worth less or just worthless?" The former I think. I would say its been devalued because of the high number of PhD students enrolling (13000 or so graduate a year), and the underfunding of universities, which can't afford to hire PhD graduates at adequate salary levels. There is no way that 13000 graduates a year can hope to find work in academia.

A further problem is the lack of standardisation between PhDs (and universities for that matter). Unlike say vets or solictors, who have to show certain competencies, PhD studies are a law unto themselves.

PhDs arent worthless, because if you are one of the happy few, you DO use what you learn. I would say its similar to acting lessons, that if you are Tom Cruise, they will be very helpful as you film Mission Impossible 12, but for failed actor Norman McNobody they arent going to help him as he sits in a corporate cubicle typing numbers into a spreadsheet.

Also to the idea that nothing bad happens to PhD students what about this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1175035,00.html

I think it points to several relevant issues.

Here I am about to start my PhD, nervous as anything and here is this thread!! Thank you. It is actually great, I have printed it off to read at ballet (for daughter, not I!!). I want to do my research, I was offered to do it in the form of a PhD and I want to hear the good, the bad and the ugly so that I am not in any way deluded. I will still go ahead, too pig-headed not to and I may be writing similar things in 3 years! Thanks for being honest even if it is a tad nerve wracking

@ BadHairCut:
We are clearly in agreement on this issue. My 'worthless' comment was obviously tongue-in-cheek and I wouldn't dare to devalue my, your or anyone's efforts on this pathway.

I am interested in what people's thoughts are on the matter as it's a discussion that isn't often had, it seems. The award of a PhD (I can imiagine) is exhilerating and extremely fulfilling, with the 'expert' tag a satisfying feeling. And that really is worth attaining. I wonder, though, if the functional utility of the award is represented in any other way for the majority of holders. If not, surely a pre-PhD handbook of some sort should be compulsory to alert potential candidates to the scenario they will face upon completion.

cont'd

The scenario only seems set to worsen so far as I can tell, particularly for those subjects that do not lend themselves to 'industry' or any other sphere outside of academia.

'Someone' said to me - regarding PhD's in the social sciences - that British universities operate much like how a mouse is asked to run on their wheel inside their cage. Hmmm.

I would absolutely do it again. I have loved doing my PhD, and while I can't say for sure it has got me where I want to be the signs are good at the moment.

But I worked in research environments (both academic and industry) before doing the PhD, so I think I was fairly clued up about the likely pitfalls both of the process and the effect of having a PhD on future options. I also thought long and hard about whether it was the right thing for me, and got advice both from friends, colleagues and professionals (careers advisors). It saddens me when I read of so many people going into PhDs without any real awareness of these things. So, another question, to all those disillusioned with where a PhD has got them, what made you decide to embark on the PhD?

I can only speak for myself, sometimes the royal 'we' will get used; and I may as well as I'm going out soon so no typing today!

It's not about being disillusioned or not being clued up. I'm 31, for example, and like nearly everyone 'we' know the score and we know the pitfalls from the very start. I did it for all sorts of reasons and couldn't have asked for a better 3 years (so highly positive).

But that's only part of the story. The question remains of why a doctorate continues to be so poorly valued for a great many people, irrespective of their experience during the PhD. That is a much bigger institutional/structural question and, it appears to me, universities couldn't give a toss about it. I can be highly positive and satisfied as a "Dr" but also seriously question the utility and worth of the award I will be given, and the implications of this.

I agree with Matt - you can be both extremely happy to have a PhD and question its worth.

It sometimes seems as though 'you' have to place yourself in the i love my PhD camp or the I hate it camp. I have the feeling that a lot of people at my place don't like to be asked questions of this nature and to think about their choices too much. It feels as tho' they see it as a personal attack on them if I question the use of a PhD or academia generally. I understand that it is personal - but I'm in the same boat.

"a lot of people at my place don't like to be asked questions of this nature"

I think this is one of the reasons for our plight. Even though our job is basically asking questions, I think we feel that if we probe too much the whole edifice will collapse.

Perhaps this resistance to self analysis is because many of us have internalised the beliefs surrounding us that our PhDs are self indulgent/ too narrow/ of little value? Expertise is all well and good, but it can only exist when other people recognise that expertise. If no one cares that you are an expert in some obscure genetic field, or the worlds authority on myeleination of Scwann cells, is it worth it if only you know about it?

It doesnt help that the onus is now to mass produce PhDs so universities are seen to be active/ keep their stats up, even though we know that most will never do anything related to their course of study. This seems to be an almost willful self destructive pathway.

@ aliby: Its impossible to get a real picture of the post-doc world unless you are actually in it. Academia is very good at hiding the dark side, and you only see the winners. The grad students are often keen to paint a brighter picture (to keep themselves going) and the lecturers and researchers you meet, well they are the "winners" that are writing the history. You dont get to meet the failures and drop outs, because their voices are effectively silenced, either by their physical absence or by dissent stopping gossip like "so and so doesnt have what it takes" "They are a whiner/ complainer/ incompetent".

At uni I looked around and saw lots of lecturers, researchers etc, and came to the logical conclusion that jobs WERE around, it was secure, that its not like running off to be an actor or an athlete. I loved my subject (still do) but failed to realise you need more than just that.

When I was awarded the position to do my PhD a mid-PhD friend sent me a card saying 'with sympathy'. It took a while to realise where she was coming from. Now I laugh.
I have, on the whole, loved my PhD. Previously I worked in well paid jobs that I couldn't get inspired towards. With my PhD I've ended up broke but I've loved both my subject and the learning process. I've grown as a person and as a researcher. I've made lots of mistakes, and in hindsight of course I could do it much better. I'd never do a PhD again.
I have no idea how much success I'll have in my future academic career, but it does worry me. But it's what I want to do - I love my research, so I go with the flow and hope for the best. I'm in that odd philosophical last couple of weeks of write up. I see the culmination of all that hard work... the heartache and the fun. I feel like I've achieved something incredible, it's been so hugely difficult. It pushes you to the edge of reason.

cont... Do I regret doing it? Not one bit. But I know people who did regret it... one's who knew what they were getting themselves in for, but got beaten down by a bad supervisor.
I'm a believer in muddling through somehow... life's hard work whether you do a PhD or not, so you just have to fight against it and keep going. Easy for me to say, I don't suffer from depression, like so many people I know. But every one that I've known has pulled through somehow. Here's me rambling incoherently (you think I'd know better after writing my discussion!)... but what matters in the end is people. So matter what you do, if you still try to keep friends and family high up the priority list, they'll help you pull through. Of course it doesn't answer the question of the poor state of job prospects for us PhD-ers. it's not right. But we all find our own paths in the end... so says the eternal optimist...

Hello, I am someone who dropped out of my PhD! I just came to realise that research and academia were really not suited to me, I hated the work and have decided to go down a more vocational route. It also really worried me that there were very few jobs out there that I wouldn't be over qualified for or would have to retrain for. I think good undergrads are often bluffed into doing PhD's like it is something expected of them, but they are not warned of the problems of what is beyond the PhD!!! I also hated the 'publish or die' attitude that was constantly floated around in the lab - I couldn't care less, there are people starving in this world, why should I care if I get my name in an obscure journal for research that would probably be disproved at a later date!? So I was obviously not cut out for research! But whatever you enjoy doing - if you don't mind about the debt and the stress and love your research, then go for it. It just wasn't for me.

I'm about to start my final year (3rd) and to be honest, I can't wait to finish but it does feel like the end is in sight!

Theres been ups and downs (plenty) but the amount of experience that I have gained (and still to be gained) is amazing and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I don't plan on staying in academia, I want to get my teeth back into industry (which my supervisors know).