This is quite a good read. I see both sides of the argument to be honest.

I favour incorporating a viva for the simple reason I think it forms an important part of assessing the student's true knowledge of their subject, though her views are interesting.

I'll admit could be argued that if a thesis / dissertation is exceptionally good and the academic excellence of the candidate is clear, then is a viva actually needed when it's clear the candidate is going to pass?

Ian

Hmm, you comment about having to be the PhD and yes, I guess for many people the PhD defines them. I know I had to through myself into it, though I was interested in and motivated by it. That interest and motivation was a big help especially during the dark days of write-up. That said, there was one poster on here who openly admitted he wasn't into his PhD, but because he couldn't find anything else he sucessfully saw it through. I wish I could remember his name.

However, you're right in that if you're hating the situation and have alternatives then it's time to bail out rather than be depressed and miserable. It looks to me as though you chose the right group and supervisor, but unfortunately the wrong subject. For that reason and the passion you clearly have in your subject, never dismiss the possibility of doing a different PhD subject in the future. You may not feel like it now, but I sense someone who could tackle the right project in the right circumstances.

As others have said, go take a holiday if possible. This will give you a breather before you start your new job and get the tiredness out of your system.

Ian

I can directly relate to your situation and unfortunately, I can't say there's an easy way out.

Like you, I did my PhD followed by a first post-doc at my PhD University. All was going okay and I managed a significant number of publications plus a book chapter jointly with my supervisor. It was overall an enjoyable although at times tough experience.

Then came my second post-doc at another University. I was taken on because one of the post-docs was overloaded with work and it was made clear to me on day two that I was "a stopgap measure, very much a second choice" and they would "just have to make do". The person they'd offered the job to first turned them down.

I had a difficult year in which I counted the days until I finished, with the Prof and above post-doc generally overbearing. At times, I just wanted to walk away. I made mistakes, but in that atmosphere mistakes were hard to avoid.

On leaving, I was on unemployment benefit for a year (no reference from second post-doc) before obtaining my current real world job where I've now been for some considerable time. Things to realise are that once out of the loop, breaking back into your chosen career path is very difficult. Also, the longer you leave it, the harder it is as new PhDs tend to fill those post-doc positions first.

All I can say is keep trying (something due to personal and family circumstances I'm unable to do) and perhaps your luck will change. Publications are everything, promote them on your academic CV and look if possible to write more. But have a non-academic plan B (your non-academic CV should be structured to promote job relevant skills and experience rather than your academic achievements - previous employment followed by qualifications) to ensure you at least have a wage paying job, Unemployment is a depressing place to be, placing you in an even worse position.

Ian

I've tended to find that with a basic post-doc that the position goes to an internal candidate who has just finished or is "about" to finish their PhD.

Translated, the positions tended to go to people still writing up their PhDs whose funding period has expired. I'm not saying anything as I benefitted from this. :-)

In many a case, the job description just happened to match that of the work of said PhD student.

Ian

It actually sounds like the Uni. is trying to encourage you to work off-campus so it can lower it's resource provision to the students.

I know it's done in the Engineering department of a certain NE University (they nickname the part of the building used the PhD call centre - I hope not to reflect the jobs the excess PhD graduates will end up doing). It looks uncomfortable.

Ian

The decision to do a PhD came with a small price for me. There had been an outside chance of me getting together with a girl from work just before I was about to start. But it was remote.

It is now some time after my Phd and University period. I've been back in the real world now for seven years. The big issue for me is finding a woman I can relate to and engage with, and the huge amount of time I've spent in the University system has left me with a different mindset. Put bluntley, I need to find someone who whilst they might not have been through the process, at least understands that I might not necessarily think the same way as other people.

This means I'm going to think through even seemilngly trivial situations whereas others might just get on with it. I also need more to gain fulfilment from life. For example, a holiday has to be an experience rather than two weeks plonked on a beach somewhere.

I want family, I want children. However, I need also to have something in common with that person. There was a stunner where I work, but I also knew that her and I just wouldn't work. Girl who bailed from school at 16 with lad who's mindset has evolved hugely because of his experiences seems a non-starter. This isn't meant to sound elitist or arrogant. I'm just trying to look at the situation practically.

Does this make sense?

Ian

It appears you've quite a bit of thinking to do. Please take a look at my blog (link following) to see if it's any assistance.

To me, the right reasons to do one are the chance to undertake work that will provide new and original knowledge to your chosen field. I decided to take that chance, even though I'd been warned it was going to be hard and that there might be problems job hunting at the end. The big problem is the small number of post-doc positions compared to the surplus PhDs produced for those wanting to stay in academia.

I went on to do two post-docs after the PhD, these being the infamous short-term contracts. After that (partially due to difficulties with the second post-doc), I had a year of unemployment hunting for mainly real world work and my qualifications were cited as a reason (will leave as soon as there's something better, will get bored in the role, too academic, etc.). I finally found a job and although it's not my chosen area, it's a job. Someone else had five offers of jobs after undergrad compared to two after PhD, when job hunting was easier.

Do I regret the PhD? No, for the simple reason I got that chance to do something original. Others, however, might consider that the employablity issue may mean it's too big a risk to take. Another poster I have read regrets taking his PhD for this very reason.

Conversely, a colleagues applied for jobs whilst post-doc and job active. He eventually landed a technical job with an Irish company before returning to the UK after 18 months. He has remained in work in his chosen field since. So your approach to job hunting may help.

Yes, there are difficulties but I found it very fulfilling and I also became more confident as a person. As Tree of Life says, it depends how much you want to do one.

Ian