Overview of Mackem_Beefy
Recent Posts
outright failure - oral examination - viva
The Degree Committee first appointed an acting supervisor for the examination procedures, later denied it and finally "no comment". The internal report ("independent") was written by a previous supervisor (who had patented the results), proven by the literary fingerprint. Nobody explains who was in charge of selecting the examiners. And the whole academic history has been physically deleted. Can an oral examination happen without an appointed supervisor? The "independent reports" were not provided before the oral examination but later. It looks like they fooled everybody. But to us is quite serious offense to falsify an oral examination at UK Institution. Are there known cases where the documentation of a viva has been changed during the following days?
Unless it's written into the documentation (contract, agreement, etc.) you signed at the beginning of the PhD, then the data from it should be your intellectual property. How can this previous supervisor patent it?
It reads as though you've had a change in supervision team. I therefore gather there's been problems with this first supervisor.
The above all seems very confused and irregular. Current supervisors normally approach internal and external examiners in the UK (with or without consulting the student), the external examiner providing a theoretically independent perspective. In practice, I've found that the external is normally fairly well known to the supervisors as they need someone working in the same field.
If you believe there have been irregularities, then I would look at what evidence you have and look at appealing against the process, exhausting all internal options first before going possibly as a very last resort to the University Ombudsman. Note any appeal should be against the process rather than the result, with the best you can hope for being re-examination by fresh examiners. Some people have successfully appealed at various Universities in the past, though I wouldn't hold your breath.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Desperate and confused
I'm agree with Engineer myself in that if you could do the PGCE part time alongside the post-doc, that is the way to go.
However, if you can't do you know for sure theat the PGCE would guarantee you a job in a years time? If so, go for it if it's what you want to do.
If not, then I would take the post-doc as that's at least two years works experience on your CV. You can revisit the PGCE and the other options two years down the road.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
outright failure - oral examination - viva
Without giving away personal information, what's happened?
Collusion as you've described, "Failed Graduate" would be difficult.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Is it enough to apply PhD without a undergraduate degree?
How can he have an MSc without a degree? I've never heard of this.
It's possible in the UK at least.
In the UK if you have an HND, HNC or equivalent qualifications according to the UK national qualifications framework, you can apply to do a Post-Grad Diploma but not a Masters.
However, as a Post-Grad Diploma is essentially the same course as the Masters at least for the first few months, if your grades and marks are sufficiently high you can be upgraded to the full Masters (essentially the extra modules needed for Masters, which may or may not include the project period). Obviously you then have to successfully complete the Masters.
Continuing to PhD will then be certainly possible, however, to obtain funding you may be expected to achieve certain grades if you do not have a preceeding Bachelor's degree. You will need to be at least Merit level at Masters without preceeding degree if you are to stand a chance.
If you have to settle for a Post-Grad Diploma, then that in itself may allow you then to apply for Masters without a Bachelor's degree.
As an aside, the HND to "Masters via upgrade from Postgrad Diploma" may be a way to bypass (or at least reduce) the need for loans and tuition fees that now form the almost unavoidable fact of life for studying a Bachelor's degree. However, this depends on you finding funding for each step of what you do, including HND and "Masters via upgrade from Postgrad Diploma" (though the latter may still need a loan if you do not have a Bachelor's degree - one year of loans is still better than three or four years though). Someone else may be able to elaborate more on this.
I know two people with HNDs that were upgraded and ended up with a Masters rather than a Post-Grad Diploma.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
corrections
Ask your supervisor to request clarification if possible. This is on the assumption that you can't contact the examiners until the corrections have been presented.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD Acknowledgements
I believe Bevcha's idea to be the best.
Please tell me you're not a six foot two rugby player that refers to your mum as 'mummy'? :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Female participants needed for dissertation questionnaire
Chickpea,
At least she's made it clear that the demographic she is looking for is for heterosexual women and about their responses.
( And no, I've only seen the intro page and not attempted the survey pretending to be a woman. Tempting, but I wouldn't ruin a legitimate survey by doing that. :-) )
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
PhD Acknowledgements
I would stronly suggest "thanks to ***** ***** (my mother) for all her help." I know how you feel by trust me, you don't want to put "mummy". Even she'll probably tell you not to (I take it you're very close to her).
Consider this. With the advent of electronic respoitories (both University and National - Ethos, Trove, etc.) that are searchable on the internet, PhD theses no longer gather dust and can be quite often access by other researchers and even members of the public.
Your thesis will be remembered, not for it's content or original contribution but possibly for the six foot two muscle bound rugby player who referred to his "mummy" in his thesis. In the days of the internet, such things very easily enter urban legend. :-)
I put the following without a word of a lie, so I can't say very much mind:
"Many thanks must be made also to my parents and friends who had to listen to all my tales of woe whilst I completed the write-up of this thesis. I also wish to pass on my gratitude to Sunderland Association Football Club where I am a season ticket holder; my trips to the Stadium of Light for football matches were at times the only break I had from my doctoral work."
Shame the three wins in a row over Newcastle didn't happen at the time!!! :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
my viva experience
Justapostgrad,
Sorry to hear that things have not gone as expected.
When I first repsonded I was suspicious that they'd said 6 months for minor corrections (before leaving academia, I'd help mark and examine M.Sc. students' work hence my different take - some on here have gone onto work fully in academia and will no doubt end up with PhD students of their own - the six month outcome will be all too familiar to them). The continued involvement of the external examiner suggests something a little more that minor corrections and that some revisions are required. The good news it seems is that you are not being recalled for a second viva not are you facing revise and resubmit, so it appears your thesis is not that far away. You have also performed sufficiently well in viva that provided you satisfy both examiners' concerns about your thesis (and once you satisfy them) that you should be awarded a PhD.
At the moment you have not received the corrections, so I would try to put them out of your mind until you see what changes they want. Once you see the corrections, you can then discuss with your supervisor how to go about any changes and give structure to your approach to these revisions. But until then, I would not worry about something you can not yet do anything about.
You're not that far away to be honest and it sounds as any changes are moderate (possibly a change in approach to results analysis or a re-edit of some parts of your discussion, say) at worst. It does NOT sound like you're going to have to restructure large parts of your thesis as would occur with revise and resubmit.
In otherwords, whatever you face is not going to be unbearably onerous and simply a matter of sorting out a few aspects to the examiners' satisfaction. So I really wouldn't worry that much.
You're not quite Dr. yet, but in six months or possibly a bit less you will be.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
my viva experience
[quote]
What is the best approach? Simply to make a person feel better without concrete advice or to be honest and then offer a practicle way forward?
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
I think that's rhetorical.
The question I asked was meant to be rhetorical. :-)
Anyay, it's time to move on from this now.
Justapostgrad, best of luck in getting sorted out. ;-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
my viva experience
thanks for the replies I double checked with my internal examiner today, and he confirmed that I pass with minor corrections, and no 2nd viva needed except that only subject to the satisfaction of internal examiner. The reason for 6 months is I have to finish my corrections and submit final version of my thesis within 6 months, I think I misinterpreted yesterday. Anyway, today I feel a bit relieved and will cool myself down with some drinks later on. really appreciate everybody's suggestions, advice and encouragement here....
I'm still puzzled as to why if you've minor corrections, you've been given six months. The normal is either one or three. I was wrapped up a week after my viva, corrections done, approved and hard bound copies signed off. That said, your supervisor may want another look (say for the odd minor page or paragraph restructure) and that might add a couple of weeks to your schedule.
That said, you seem more relaxed. If you've misinterpreted the examiner's comments and you only have a few minors to sort, then chances are you'll wrap this up in a few weeks. That's good!!! Now go have a few drinks, you're almost there. Get back to it Monday morning and wrap it up.
As for SimonG, one thing be realised is I tell things how they are. I will not create a false positive in someone's minds to make them feel better when it is not truthfully where they are and I believe the truth as I understand it is more useful in helping people make an informed decision, which must ultimately come from within. That said, I will also try to offer the right advice as to how a person might move on from that situation to find themselves in a better place than they are now.
What is the best approach? Simply to make a person feel better without concrete advice or to be honest and then offer a practicle way forward?
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
my viva experience
Sometimes, I actually wonder why I post in this forum. I think there's an element of having been through the process of doing a PhD, knowing how hard it is and feeling somehow obligated to share my experiences with people going through it... from trying to pick a project through to the viva and corrections. And encourage where necessary.
Mackem_Beefy:-
1. I added the proviso "Errrrr..." in my previous response as I am well aware that there is a vagueness regarding the nature of justapostgrad's corrections.
2. I am also well aware that institutions differ in time scales. That's why I said "normally". The norm seems to be three months for minor corrections. Curiously, mine sometimes offers eight weeks as opposed to twelve. Nobody seems to understand the differential. It's probably dependent on which way out the examiners are on the day.
3. Well of course, with post-viva corrections you're not over the line until you've done them and the examiner(s) approve(s) them. However, with achievable corrections - and justapostgrad SHOULD have a clear idea of the requirements after the viva - and no requirement for a re-examination (?), it's an "all but....".
Even minor corrections are not necessarily the breeze that some might have you believe. But with minor corrections, you've essentially achieved the standard,j-a-p, and nobody should take that away from you. Unless you're mad enough to do another PhD, you'll only have one "viva-pass day" in your life (and a Friday to boot :) - mine was on a Monday :-E ). So let everyone buy you a drink.
WTF???
I was actually trying to be honest with the OP. Six months for "minor" corrections is unusual and the point I was making is I believe the truth is somewhere between major and minor. He has to wait for the examiners' comments.
I don't want the OP to fail and I sincerely hope he passes. You've misread me I'm afraid.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
my viva experience
It depends on University regulations - minor corrections can be one month (my old place) or three.
If it's six months, they you'll probably find when you get the paperwork it is listed technically as major corrections. I thus think you're right not to celebrate yet and you need to see what corrections they want before you make that judgement. (Thinking back, even when I had minor corrections, I didn't feel like I was there until the hard bound copies of my thesis were handed over and I got the acceptance letter. I'd gone into viva privately expecting major corrections if I'm honest with myself.)
However, the examiners saying "minor" suggests that whilst there may be a significant volume of corrections to make, that it's not something that you should worry too much about. It may be the corrections need say two months to do, however, the University regulations might have only allowed for one or six months.
So don't panic as I think you're nearly there but reading the above, you are probably wise to consider yourself not over the line yet.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Regarding PhD extension fees
Psychresearcher,
At my old place, you went one day over the limit and you copped the overrun fee for the whole year. Unis. have lots of admin. people who at times are right jobsworths full of their own self impotance. It's not necessarily the person insisting you have to pay either, as their own totals may have to tally in order not to get grief from their own at times clueless boss.
I just paid my £250 on day one of the overrun, knowing from past dealings with finance that arguing with them was pointless.
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
Regarding PhD extension fees
Somewhere, some computer system will have flagged you have not submitted therefore has automatically billed you the £300. Unis. being Unis., they'll stick to their gouns on this.
As the delay was departmental, I suggest you pay the £300 and claim it back from your department as expenses with your supervisor's agreement. Alternatively, your supervisor will have his / her own budget, thus if you cannot find the £300 then see if the department will pay.
The alternative is your PhD (at least ultimately the award of it) is delayed until the issue of the £300 is sorted out. In the end, someone will have to pay the money to keep the bean counters and jobsworths happy.
I guess your supervisor could escalate up to Dean of Faculty level such that the person (in the Graduate School, Registry or Finace depending on your Uni. regulations) insisting you pay decides he or she is not on a high enough pay grade to argue. :-)
Ian (Mackem_Beefy)
