First of all and to be blunt, you've not had your viva yet so don't count your chickens before they've hatched. Too many people have gone into viva overconfident, just to find themselves with major corrections.

Secondly, the fact you've not yet received your PhD will count against you when competing against other candidates. You may find more success being interviewed once it is awarded.

Thirdly, I do know there are people who manage to chain together 'serial' post-docs at their PhD University. However, the reality is they need to stay in work as much as you need to be in work. Also, such serial positions are becoming rarer with an oversupply of PhDs in the market and funding reduced by central government and thus the funding bodies. You are in a very difficult marketplace where you need to learn how to sell your skills effectively to a potential employer. Look at your CV and see how you can express your previous activities as 'achievements' rather than a list of things you have done. Also, look at targetting the skills you have that are relevant to the post you are applying for. I learnt this for myself after becoming unemployed after my second post-doc (not a serial post at my PhD University).

There is a separate thread about the state of the post-grad jobs market and you may wish to look at that. You are not alone and if you hang around here, others may be able to offer you support or guidance.

http://www.postgraduateforum.com/thread-23669/

You should seriously consider a plan B (i.e. post/career outside academia as I did), however, the PhD may itself portray you as 'overqualified' as discussed in the employment thread I mentioned. Once in a job, any job, it may make it easier to find a job you want to do, however, the reality is the jobs market for many out there is very difficult at the moment without the right contacts and experience.


All the best,

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I managed to gain an academic reference from one of my undergrad lecturers eight years after the fact. Strangely, my PhD University would only accept an undergrad reference and not one from my Masters.

If you stood out for any reason, they will remember you. If not, point out your Academic Excellence award and someone who lectured you should gladly oblige.

Although thankfully not mentioned in the reference, I was remembered particularly because I spilt a pot of uncured resin all over the polymer lab flaw. It made one hell of a mess!!! :-)

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

The above sounds like my second post-doc supervisor, who was also a difficult character. You've basically got a personality Professor who behaves and acts like God.

If you've still got your referees on side, I'd quietly try to look for another PhD elsewhere. Keep your head down for now though until you secure something. Remember to have a good look around any potential new University, remembering to talk to other students there, to ensure a repeat performance is unlikely.

I'd also look for employment at least to pay the bills until you find something else or if you've decided PhD is not for you.

Don't leave (unless forced to) until you've secured something else, as finding another PhD Studentship or alternatively a job is more difficult if you're currently unemployed.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

My blog may also be of help:

WJ Gibson,

You are taking the North American standpoint that removing your PhD perhaps shouldn't be done. Yes, people work hard for them and yes, they should not feel the need to remove them. I have said above I would now advise against that as traces of all PhDs will now appear on the internet (see my previous posts), an employer checking you work history may find your PhD. As I have said, some emplyers may be understanding (i.e. in the UK and Europe) whilst others see it as dishonesty (especially North America). The situation is more complicated by government employed employment advisors actually suggesting removal as a job finding strategy, most notably in the UK and Spain.

I was advised back in 1993 during Masters that a good, focussed Masters was a better option for the non-academic employment market than a PhD. I would strongly suggest to anyone wanting to enter the general employment market after their post-grad life to be sure that a PhD is the best option without looking at a Masters path first.

When I went into PhD, I went in with five years real world experience yet when circumstances meant I had to leave academia, I found this five years didn't make much difference. Some employers didn't read my CV / resume properly and even thought I was still doing the PhD!!! I rearranged my CV to combat this and to promote the five years real world experience better.

I know people remove their PhD from their CVs and this is a decision that such people make either out or economic necessity or desparation. You cannot live on unemployment benefit for too long when people keep turning you down. I am thus not surprised people decide to take this decision.

Another knock-on effect is on moving on from the job where you concealed your PhD, problems remain as revealing your PhD could create political difficulties with your current employer reference with this withheld information.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Grant,

Your chances of doing anything with a third class degree within the academic or school system these days are poor to be honest. This was true when I got my degree when expectations were lower and a 2(ii) was acceptable for many things (the bar has effectively been raised - anything less than 2(i) is considered not worth much). I had a problem with freezing in exams and had planned to resit my final year if I was offered anything less than a 2(ii) at that time.

Bluntly put, at the time you knew your grades you should have looked into resitting your final year.

You might want to look at:

1) Self funding a PGCE. You are very unlikely to gain funding for a PGCE with a 3rd class degree. However, if you do this, your degree is still third class, which will be a major hinderance to any employment application unless you shine on teacher placement. You also need experience - I know someone who did PGCE after his degree (in his case a 2(ii)) and he's struggling on this point. He's trying to gain this voluntarily, but it's a long haul.

2) Take another degree. You comment that fees have shot up, however, if you contact the Student Loan Company you'll find out that you only pay back once you start earning more than £21,000 gross and even then you are only expected to pay back 9% of earnings beyond this £21,000 mark - this mark will rise with inflation (Browne review). This is better in some respects to the old system with it's lower trigger amount of £15,000 (though this also has started to rise with inflation).

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If you really want to teach, I would consider option two and you could probably do this part-time (i.e. also have some sort of part-time job alongside if available). If this part-time job is relevant, it may also give you the experience you need to help break into teaching.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

At the end of the day, it's a blog and therefore no one professional will hopefully take it too seriously as a reliable source of information.

At best, engage in a bit of banter anonymously to point out any errors. That should be enough to put queries about it in other people's minds, if you think something is incorrect that may lead to someone using the information to make an ill informed decision. However, unless this misrepresentation might lead someone vulnerable to do something silly (bearing in mind it is psychology), I wouldn't lose any real sleep over it.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Hi Steph,

I'm one of the people who's come out the other end and still pays the occasional visit here (came back here after a mate threatened to do one, also this place has helped me come to terms with a very nasty second post-doc experience).

I created a blog after my PhD to give guidance to new and potential PhD students. Hopefully it will be of help to you with regrad to what you might or might not encounter and also in explaining exactly what a PhD is to friends and family.

Hmm, on reading the further replies I can see that others have concluded a Plan B (work outside academia) is at least an idea before embarking on a PhD or at least when considering life after PhD whilst still doing it. I myself had to accept a Plan B outside academia when my second post-doc went badly wrong and even then, it was a struggle (one year) to get any employer to take me seriously (I was an academic / overqualified / etc.). This was despite an extensive period outside academia before I did my PhD.

I heard one academic say that someone's work or qualification had a half-life of 2 years before it became an ineffective tool on your CV. I'm not sure of the accuracy of that figure, though I do admit it becomes harder the longer you are outside employment or even a relevant field.

I disagree with the remark that the situation is reverting to that of independently wealthy academics, though anyone reaching academia will face also having to clear student debt from undergraduate years. The government will thus be guaranteed a sizable chunk of it's money back. The funding situation will remain bad for some years, however, if a country is to have a competitive edge it must invest in research and post-austerity, the situation has to improve. However, that means a substantial portion of a generation of PhD-qualified people will miss out as a new set of people will be studying PhDs and these people will gain priority when the new clutch of research posts finally sees the light of day (i.e. post-2018 in the UK).

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Much of what I was going to say has been said in the above. The oversupply of PhD-qualified people means it's a buyer's market and many people with PhDs end up outside academia as a result. One point not made is it's cheaper to hire a PhD student to carry out a research project rather than a qualified post-doc, this further exacerbating the situation.

As regards removing your PhD from CV, as late as 2007 or 2008, I would have suggested this as a strategy and I have had it suggested to me before I found employment. Portraying your PhD period as a Research Assistant position (with permission and help of your former supervisors who will no doubt act as employment referees) seems to avoid the overqualified tag and at least precipitate employment in the real world outside academia.

However, there are two problems with this. Firstly, when moving on from this first non-academic job, how do you explain hiding the PhD or do you continue to hide it in future employment? Some employers may be understanding of this but some might not and see it as deceit.

Secondly, the introduction of http://ethos.bl.uk (plus equivalents outside the UK) and electronic repositories at Universities mean there's a searchable record of your PhD past. Again, some employers will be sympathetic and some will see it as dishonest.

On Linkedin on the PhD Careers outside of Academia group, there's been a long running debate on removing the PhD from your CV. The USA-based people (making I guess 70% of the posters there) almost to a man see this as a gross dishonesty. The few European voices seem to be drowned out, where there is sympathy for this strategy.

If you try this, you had better hope the potential employer does not attempt to Google your name and manage to match up the details on your CV with the your PhD work.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)