In my case it was:

1) 3 years;

2) Around 4 years; and

3) Maximum 5 years unless there were extenuating circumstances.

The maximum for other places was four years.

Add two years onto those figures for part-time.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Okay, best of luck with the job hunting. As regards staying off forums, let's see how long you last. ;-)


Cheerio!!!


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I know the feeling and there's days we have to take time out to recharge. Don't feel guilty.

You're nearly there and soon you'll be able to take some time off. As regards major problems with the thesis, this will be decided by the examiners. If you've done your best and kept good structure to your work, worry about such things once you've had your viva and not before you've even submitted.

Good luck!!!

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

It may be it's close run between you and one or more other candidates. This interview may be the decider as to who they award the position to. That's just my guess anyway.

Best of luck,

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

======= Date Modified 25 Apr 2012 12:59:51 =======

Broken it may be, but it's what we've got to work with. A PhD is not like anything we'll see in the real world, however, the supervisor (good or bad) is still the person who can make or break you as regards the PhD and regarding references for employment afterward. There's a big difference between expressing your opinion to them and standing your ground to your own detrement.

I had major problems with my supervisor for my second post-doc (man management issues - not the same supervisor as for my PhD), which led to my career taking a radically different direction to that I'd intended, so I know all too well what can happen. I saw out the contract, but left without a reference.

Yes, you can escalate your complaint and go to the Dean. However, Universities will go to great lengths to protect their reputation against perceived troublemakers (even when the person concerned is in the right) in such a way to attract as little attention as possible. People get frozen out or decisions are made about them in their absence that effectively end their career within academia. I've seen it happen twice to other people and I know of other stories.

Is it worth causing so much trouble over the position of your name on a paper? The important thing is you have your name on a paper and you have something to put on your CV. If you want to be first author, then as I said later publish after the PhD is finished and write a paper or two yourself.

On the other hand, if you want to fight these perceived injustices then I fully expect to drop back here in a couple of years time to find you complaining about an uncooperative supervisor, or you having received major corrections or an MPhil (or worse) because you didn't listen or fought your supervisor or department over a minor issue and he/she/they withdrew their cooperation.

The system isn't perfect and allows alot that is wrong to happen. However, do you want to make yourself the failing martyr with nothing to show for your three to five years of hard work?


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

======= Date Modified 25 Apr 2012 11:13:45 =======
Many PhDs have a perfectionist mindset and looking back, I was no different.  It even got to the point where because I disagreed with one of my primary supervisor's remark, although I let him have his way in the thesis my first 'corresponding / first author' paper contained a proof of why his observation was incorrect.  It was remarked by my predecessor that it was almost as though I was willing to delay the submission and even risk major corrections to ensure I had as near as possible a technically correct thesis I could feel happy with.  My predecessor said just let him have his way so you can get rid of the thing, receive no more than minor corrections and get your life back. 

That said, the paper followed very quickly as soon as I had data that proved my supervisor wrong.  So the perfectionist tendencies hadn't been knocked out me entirely, however, my need to correct my supervisor was after the fact and not endangering the award of my PhD.

As Bejasus said, you have to make the process work for you during a PhD, this in order to make the final product worthy of a PhD.  What many candidates don't realise is the scale of work involved and the need for structure to your PhD.  Whilst setting targets and deadlines can help give some structure, the main issue is that of designing the experimental or research programme so that you obtain the data that proves or disproves a hypothesis, and thus provides you with that original set of findings that will earn your PhD.

In my case, I set up an arbitrary array (temperature versus speed versus material let's say) in which I tweaked the key variables to gain a matrix of outcomes.  Without that structure, there would not have been a project.

It took me six months at the beginning of the project to adjust from a real world 'final deliverables' mindset (including the need to have clear benchmarks or grades if you like) to an 'in process' mindset if you like, where I realised I had to build up the picture rather than reach the finish line by the quickest route possible.  In essence, it was a marathon, not a sprint. 

If you had PhDs where it was portioned up so that parts were graded, given the ups and down you face during it you'd have good days and bad days and the variation in any grades you'd receive I honestly believe might a more negative effect on the psychology of the candidate. Besides, how can you grade what may be essentially new findings, where it is difficult to compare with equivalent data and the information is new even to your supervisors and peers?

Also, no matter how hard you try, you will never have the perfect document and there will always be something you're not satisfied with.  Keep in mind your supervisors (if they are good supervisors and they appear to be) will guide you towards a document that they will prompt you to submit when it is at it's least damaging, in other words when you have put sufficient work into it to pass with no more than minor corrections but not so overdone that it actually begins to fall apart (i.e. it keeps to the point of being a study of the original hypothesis).  Keep a day-to-day structure to your PhD rather than focussing on an end result that is three to five years away.  If you don't you may very well find yourself feeling the end game is so far away that you feel it is unachievable or you burn yourself out trying to reach that end result without looking after the day-to-day aspects of your project (which also opens you up to criticism of lack of original content).

A PhD is not like any real world project you'll ever encounter. :-)


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Does the software on the SEM and TEM not have a measuring facility. If you opt for AFM, that certainly will.

If not, you will have a scale on any images taken, with which you can estimate size.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I know this seems strange raising a very old thread (and how I dragged this from the memory banks I'll never know), however, I just noticed there's two very similar usernames registered on this forum. There's a 'DanB' (without a full stop) who's straight and a 'DanB.' (with a full stop) who's gay.

It's just I answered a post the other day where 'DanB.' (with the full stop) already has his PhD, but has a boyfriend who's writing up (and is asking boyfriend to get a job). There was the 'DanB' (without a full stop) who at the time of the below had a girlfriend. My distant memory of the latter had me scratching my head (was it the same person and had he come out). I guess this is the danger of very similar usernames. :-)

Anyway, mystery solved (I hope).


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Who is writing the paper? The person actually writing the paper is usually first author.

If you are largest contributor of data but are not actually writing the paper, then I'd say being listed as second author is actually reasonable. If you are writing the paper as well as contributing the bulk of the data, then you should be first author.

I'll add that at this stage you are a student and have not yet been awarded your PhD. In your position, I'd concentrate on doing what is necessary to achieve that aim and go along with your supervisor's wishes. You do not want to ailienate your supervisor whilst you are a student, as you may find the supervisor becomes less supportive, more ambivolent and even hostile towards you.

Unless you have an industrial sponsor or there are other stipulations in any agreement you signed when you started your PhD, you are correct in that you hold the intellectual ownership of the data. However, owning the data does not necessarily mean you have right to be first author. That is the person who contributes most to the paper, normally the actual writer.

If you feel unhappy with this, once you have your PhD then as intellectual owner of the data then you can put out publications with your name as first author. But whilst you have not been awarded your PhD, earning that should be your primary aim and you should not act to detract from that. Concentrat on getting the PhD.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Are you in a position to move to Bath now, rent somewhere and complete your write-up there?

This would at least distance you from your husband and his family, giving you some much needed space to finish off.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

It's a brave decision to quit when you decide a path through life is not for you. Best of luck for the future.

I agree with Delta that you're doing the right thing, not quitting until you've found a job.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I was of the mindset when writing up that all I wanted to do was get finished. In the end I did get a job whilst writing up (post-doc at my PhD Uni.), however, there was more effort put into the write-up than the job.

People were asking me to make decisions about my life when I couldn't see past the next section of my thesis. Outsiders do not understand what we put ourselves through and (within reason) our need to be left alone and allowed to get on with it. One friend I think was expecting me to prioritise driving lessons ahead of the PhD, saying a full driving license would make the biggest difference to my life of all and this when I was close to submitting. Me being me, if someone pressures me over something, I resist all the harder especially if I'm focussed on something else.

It's a few years since I finished, yet the memories of write-up are still fresh for me. I'm aware you probably want him to do his share but it's probably a decision he's not able to make psychologically at the moment. If he's anything like many PhD candidates, a job will come onto the agenda as the funding runs out and he realises he has to have an income. He will come to that decision himself.

If you try to pressure him as a time when he's already under a great deal of pressure, you have to be careful what gives. He could decide you're being a bossy boots and the pressure you're applying is something he can do without.

Do you want to lose him by pressing too much on the issue? Some of my friendships were put on hold (see above) during the latter stages of write-up, simply because I wanted to do without the grief.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

I appreciate what you're saying, however, that can vary from Uni. to Uni. and department to department, hence my caution. It may be that things are improving since my experiences a few years ago.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

======= Date Modified 19 Apr 2012 12:31:56 =======

I thought about taking action after problems during my second post-doc (at a Uni. other than my Ph.D. Uni.) once I left the post. When the senior professor on your second day of your year in the job describes you as "Very much a second choice, a stop gap measure, we'll just have to make do" to the girl who was to be my (de)mentor, I think you can guess how the post-doc went. ACAS was suggested to me after I left and I struggled to find work without a reference from the position (I wasn't sacked, but the breakdown in relations was complete).

However, I had made an error during that time in a meeting with a major client and I was aware this could be used against me should an action be taken, even though I feel I was not briefed fully on statistical methodologies being used when I began the second post-doc and this contributed to the error (i.e. "we are using method X" would have been sufficient to set me on my way, rather than me grovel in the dark). Also, a previous action against the professor concerned had failed and it appears the Uni. concerned has closed ranks to protect it's reputation (i.e. the familiar tale of people not wanting to be involved to protect their own careers and jobs). In addition, I needed to be back in work and an ongoing action would count against me.

Have you kept a diary of events? Have you material evidence? Have you a witness who won't melt away? These will help in any case you may decide to raise for harrasment and bullying.

Universities I feel are difficult to fight for the reasons I've given and continue to exist in a different era to the rest of the world. Be very sure of your position before you decide to take action against them.


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Seriously, do exactly as Delta says.

However, there is the temptation to issue a list of corrections back to the examiners for their report!!! :-):-):-)


Ian (Mackem_Beefy)