My supervisor and the department are all good. I did find my Masters thesis a challenge a couple of years ago but this was mainly due to being a distance student and a having very overworked supervisor-and the rewriting at the end got to me at times.

This time round, I'm close to the campus and supervisor-my supervisor is lovely and the department are pretty helpful. The ethics committee are finicky but pretty much standard otherwise. And I am so used now to rewriting everything all the time, I don't even blink an eyelid at critical requests for rewriting. But, I could be very lucky this time round...I know it isn't always the way for everyone.

======= Date Modified 23 Sep 2012 00:23:35 =======
Hi G-,

Um don't actually have personal experience of this but it is probably similar to things that might happen when starting a new PhD part-time and working in a professional capacity. Supervisors do sometimes get a bit excited and give you tasks straight off-and forget that you might be working in blocks not working continuously as in a full time PhD on a stipend.

My approach with my own supervisor (who is great but I am her first PhD student so she is learning about how to supervise-as much as I am learning how to do a PhD) initially was to acknowledge what she was saying, but then go home and just blast my way through whatever admin task deadline I needed to meet for my employer. Once I had put that to rest, I would spend a day or two looking at her ideas so that at the next meeting I could discuss things -very generally. The first couple of meetings with a supervisor, I found, had me really just wandering all over the place with only half a clue really (!) and she dealt with that really well. Probably many of us find that we only really start working out where we are, a few months into the PhD anyway.

So my advice-with caution, based on very limited experience of your specific situation- is to bore through your dissertation and get it done with then in 3 weeks time (I think was your planned timeline for finishing dissertation?) look at what your new supervisor is saying, and expect to just nod and take notes for a meeting or so until you can get a bit of a handle on it. Cheers and good luck with the completion and the new beginning:-)

PS: I meant to add also, that once you have finished the dissertation and after getting to know your supervisor better, you can then let them know that you were doing this so weren't as organised as you normally are. Sort of in retrospect. If you have an understanding supervisor, then they will be very supportive and won't think anything further about it-they certainly won't think any worse of you.

I think you're right Ian-sorry Postgrad-I thought your extension was paid and that you could then take further time to submit after the grant finished. It does make a difference and hopefully Johnny has put your mind at rest. One other thing though...is it possible to take the extension and submit a thesis that (even if it doesn't qualify you for a PhD) would give you a Masters qualification?

Good luck with your decision whichever way you go...it is a tough decision to make(up)

Congratulations, that is fantastic news; well done for all your hard work, excellence and perseverance.(up)

Hi Postgrad, I know you asked mainly about paying back and already have received replies about this...and it sounds to me as if you are feeling pretty low right now buttt....

how far through are you-not in years but in actual data collection-research and writing? If you took the extension (continuing to work part-time)
and then worked full time-yes you could finish writing up while working full time. You would have drafts now I take it, so writing up is shaping up the thesis and polishing-making it coherent, etc.

This can definitely be done while working full time-it won't be easy but it is certainly possible. Many of us on the forum are working full time and doing their PhD-and while we are doing it part-time- the reality is many of us do it sort of half and half. There are times when we do very little on it because we are working on something and have a few life issues and then there are times when we are working on it almost full time as well as our full time job. It gets done.

If you took say, the 6 months extension and then allowed maybe another 8-12 months of finishing the write up while working full time, then you are late but you have finished it. The other thing is once you have finished the grant-you can work full time. The rules preventing you from working only apply while the grant is in place and not once it has finished.

Could you move back home for 6 months-sublet your house to students for 6 months, then move back in, get a job and finish the write up?

Sorry if I am being painful with my -"you can do it speech"-but the thing is it is such a lot of time and work to just let go of and I think you might regret doing this. Also while universities used to be more forgiving about these things, they are increasingly becoming far more competitive with regard to future offers. So you probably won't have to pay it back but it is going to be very hard to get another such grant in the future if this happens. Extreme reasons for non-completion or pulling out are accepted (medical or similar) but my observations and conversations with colleagues doing doctorates in the last few years (3-5 since GFC) have been that scholarships and entry are far more competitive and universities don't give many second chances (whereas once they did). Good luck. Think about all of that hard work you have already put into this and know you can finish if you really believe in yourself.:-)

It's pretty worrying that you have this many difficulties this early on (3 weeks into your program). Is there a chance that you could have a different supervisor? Can you go around and recruit another quietly before things go too much further?

Just a thought re: ideas and publications (once into the thesis); it is pretty common to share cudos regarding what you do, write and publish during the doctorate, with your main supervisor and the second or third as well. I have two supervisors (a 70% one-who is basically what I would call 'my supervisor' and a 30% one-whom I have not yet met but who apparently reads
and approves things like Ethics Applications and research plans before they go into committees). All of our names appear on any correspondence going out or being received relating to my study and will also, no doubt, appear on anything I publish from this particular study. They get copies of every email, letter, etc as well.I presented and published a paper and article from my Masters and my former supervisor was credited as the second author for these particular pieces even though, once I had actually submitted my Masters thesis, I pretty much did the rest myself.So accepting that your supervisor may get more credit for your ideas that you would like or think is fair, is sort of fairly common. Your name should be first though on anything published.

Is your doctorate an extension of your Masters? If so then presenting posters and papers at conferences right now would be fine I imagine as you would have a lot of data backing up your ideas. If (like me) your new study is a relatively different topic again, then her caution might be warranted. I could have presented a poster at my university's recent Research Conference but decided to wait until the next year's conference simply because I just don't feel that I have quite enough yet to be really confident with all that I would like to say. Same with articles and papers-for me I'm thinking around this time next year would be right for an article and paper but that's me...if I had chosen to extend my Masters (as was my original plan) then I might feel very differently about it.

You are probably her very first doctoral student, so she may be overly cautious as well but if you are getting 'bitchy' and demeaning vibes from her this early on, it sounds like it is going to be difficult to get that solid working relationship that is most helpful to you and your work.

Hi, I found this today in amongst my research for other things and thought that it might be interesting to others as well. Apologies if it has already been posted. The study has a beautiful name by the way..(.hope when my very pedestrian Educational study is almost done, I can find something as evocative to replace my present functional PhD title...)

The topic is food for thought, especially during those dreary times of work when we want to toss it all in, and perhaps knowing that most of us feel this way at times, might give people the strength to work through the tough points and finish.

http://www.universityaffairs.ca/speculative-diction/my-grief-lies-all-within-phd-students-depression-attrition/

(The link hasn't gone blue on my post for some reason-btw-so if this link doesn't work as it should just type in

'my grief lies all within' phd and depression and it should come up as a search item on google.

======= Date Modified 13 Sep 2012 22:28:57 =======
Forgive me for saying this but where does this supervisor come from? It is a very biased comment to make, based on some unfounded assumption that has washed in from God knows where! It is so wrong on so many levels that it makes your supervisor seem (based on the writing) to be quite old fashioned, eccentric and out of touch with reality and the 21st century!

Ignore it and just get on with your PhD. Pity that you have to keep the supervisor but perhaps you can bring it up with him if you feel strongly about it. Sometimes a joking sort of response is the most helpful and (I very much agree with Bewildered's post below) addressing something with the person concerned is usually preferable to making a formal issue or going over their head.:-) best of luck with your PhD and even more luck with the supervisor!

Hi Kingapple, PhD's are not all about the excitement and the passion. Sure there are moments when they are, but these are only moments in a long stretch of hard grind. The PhD trains you to be a researcher, who can run a project in a discipline.

Basically this means to pose a question or hypothesis or problem;
then to design a project to collect data to provide information on this problem, question or hypothesis;
then to interpret and analyse the results and;
finally to present them in a written work that is comprehensive and clearly written.

Passion is great but it isn't going to sustain you through those points where you just have to churn through the work (as you do in the world of work-even in careers you are passionate about). During those moments, you often have to hang on to other things until you find a peak moment or reach an exciting checkpoint or goal.

I think you should be careful about stopping your PhD now, because you are fed up, hoping that later you will find a better topic. PhD's are competitive and universities will look carefully at your reasons for quitting before giving you another chance.

But the situation you described in your fourth paragraph does sound difficult and sounds as if it needs to be resolved. Can you write down your issues and email them to your supervisor before your next meeting and just say you really need to discuss these? Don't bring up the issue of boredom but do talk about how you are having trouble connecting your series of experiments into a coherent piece of data that is useful for the thesis. Say that this is distressing you and you are not sure of what the next step is...or something along those lines perhaps?

Good luck with your decision. (My personal advice is don't quit-if you really want a PhD and see your career being in research-try to twist your topic into something you find a little more interesting- AND- if you can do this, then still expect to be bored quite often while you do all of the tedious data collection, experiments, write ups, etc.


:-)

Good luck with the lit review chapter Natassia. I think that you will be okay...even if you don't think so yourself...

I'm about to head off to the library to get out some material for my own lit review. I'm just at the boring policy and government document bit...in Australia, I am on school holidays for two weeks but at least one week of this will be the lit review, and one will be home stuff and work administration (and marking).

As I am doing a social science mixed methods study,I have just formally submitted full ethics application to committee,plus submitted detailed research plan to faculty review (the plan has recently been approved). Thus, I have just completed very drafty drafts of material for Chap 1 and methodology for Chap 3. (I:E Research plan and ethics application).

But now I have to leave these and really tackle a more comprehensive lit review-hence boring policy documents and library visit.

My goal for lit review is to have drafty draft half done by early November-when it is due for Grad Research certificate unit assessment, but a more polished draft completed by the end of January-after the summer holidays are over.(up)

It is really hard to have the best of both worlds at once. Working is great and the money is often even better but most professional jobs are very demanding and don't leave you much energy for study, once you have taken care of your life outside of work (home, family, friends, exercise, chores, leisure, etc). It isn't impossible to study as well as work in a rewarding career or profession but it is pretty difficult and you have to be determined. And it isn't something that you would want to go on for ever-about 5-6 years of career+study seems to be most people's limit. However, money and income are important and they can bring with them a freedom of sorts-once you have fulfilled your work responsibilities.

Other jobs-ones that you can leave at work and not think about at all- are good for the work/study combination but they don't always take you very far. They are purely there to put 'bread on the table', while you focus on your study or whatever else it is that you are passionate about in life.

Full time study can be personally very rewarding and lead to further employment. However, inbetween the rewarding aspects of achieving goals are long spells of quite boring or demanding study and research and you have to be content with a much simpler standard of living while you study.

But you rarely can get all of these things together in one package (unless you have a private income or something). So finally, you have to look at a combination of what you want, where you would like to be and what seems to be the best pathway to get there (for you that is-given your own talents and abilities). And then when you are on that pathway, you need to have some acceptance that it won't always be great, there will be days when you wonder whether you made the right decision and days when you envy those who have made a different decision (but this won't last-it is just a normal human feeling).

Personally I find that not only writing for advice (as in journal writing or posting on a forum) but discussion with a variety of people whose judgement I trust, really helps. It also helps when they have quite different perspectives, as sometimes they provide an insight that I might have overlooked. I don't always follow one person's advice-I just keep thinking about all of the different perspectives until I have formed something that suits me (mostly-there are always some losses-'the road not taken'- R.Frost).
Good luck and best wishes:-)

Hi Chopsticks,

I think you have been given some excellent replies and want to add my own perspective. I'm currently working fulltime and doing the doctorate part-time and have come full circle with my thinking about why I want a doctorate and what it is about the doctorate that I value.

When I started this, I was making up for lost time, having gone into teaching as a profession because I needed to support my family and I felt that I couldn't afford academia given that I already had children who were dependent on me. So I started this doctorate after many years with the hope that academia might still be a possibility. I am glad that I am doing this PhD, it is worthwhile and it has given me a real perspective on my own profession that I don't think that I would have developed otherwise.

However, I don't want to continue with academia beyond this course of study, and for me it will be the final 'full on-full time' course of higher ed that I do (other than little fun courses like how to cook paella or something or short professional learning courses for my workplace).

I'm enjoying the process but actually will be really (really!!) glad when it is done. I plan to use this in my profession so that I can write and research and publish, but from the perspective of an expert practitioner not so much an academic. Not that I don't admire academics, I do...I just know that for me it isn't what I ultimately want. It no longer seems to me something that I 'missed out on' but something that I chose not to do for very sound reasons-even if those choices were unconscious at the time.

People do PhD's for so many reasons-to make a contribution to knowledge, to situate themselves in their professional career, to pursue a private dream, to become a practising reseacher and; or to become an academic. These are all valid reasons. I would be thinking that in your case, along with Bewildered, that perhaps you should try the industry pathway-it isn't always the 'second best' option. I thought that Bewildered made some really insightful perceptions about why you were drawn to the postdoc. Good luck with your choices-good decision making isn't black and white or linear for all of us. It is often circular and reiterative-which makes it really frustrating at times :-)

======= Date Modified 09 Sep 2012 23:52:32 =======
Congratulations Pam on submitting and hope all goes well with viva. Good luck to everyone else here on this post who is very, very close to submission! Thinking of you and wishing I was that close to the finish line myself (sigh).(up):-)

Congratulations Dr Donzy-well done and I bet there are no regrets now!(up) Hope the next stage of your life is happy, healthy and inspiring! You certainly have earned your laurels.

And also nice to hear from you KB- clinical psychology sounds really good. I would really have loved to do this myself in another life but I'm fine with my present pathway nowadays. I'm well thanks...busy but well and I know now that 'busy' is how I like it...new motto 'busy with but busy with balance'.

======= Date Modified 09 Jun 2012 23:36:12 =======
======= Date Modified 09 Jun 2012 23:26:05 =======
KB, really sorry to hear about the experience you mentioned post PhD and hope things are much improved. Do you have a Postdoctorate at present?

And best of luck Donzy, with the viva and all that comes with your success.

I would echo the point made by some forumites on other posts and also pick up a thread of KB.s. I have a long way to go and am sure there will be some rocky points at times. There were for short periods when doing my  Masters thesis especially during the write-up-although doing the Masters by distance made it harder for me I think.

However, what I do love about doing this PhD even when my workplace has major deadlines coinciding with the ethics application, etc is having something to really focus on and develop. Having an intellectual (and emotional as it impacts on people) problem in my life to explore and hopefully shed some light on, gives me a purpose beyond my workplace and family (though my family esp. grown children are very very important), and even just the usual things we do in life that we like. I find it essential for my personal well-being. It is sort of a part of who I am. And once the PhD is done, I may still work in my admin/teaching roles in secondary colleges being perhaps a little old to get the posts in academia nowadays (am in late 40's now), but I will be able to write and publish and explore these sorts of issues further. So I will always have an issue or intellectual or professional concern that I explore through consultation, research and writing.

And some people wonder why you can't just have that feeling about work-sometimes I wonder about it myself. But I found in my workplace that I was always trying to improve things and while this went well, I was pretty happy. But often I couldn't. People were not interested or could not sustain a project beyond the early funding and then they wanted to go onto something else, so the change or improvement was really superficial-a lot of the drive for change and improvement was fairly 'on the surface' and related to politics. This was/is incredibly frustrating to me and impacted on my satisfaction as a professional.

Now what I do is I see myself not only as a professional who often has to work within the constraints of her workplace and system but as a researcher, who wearing a different hat and perspective, can comment on the difficulties and tensions that occur at a system level, having some understanding of why this happens, as well as some tolerance and perspective about how tricky it might be for many people.

So the Phd helps me have that bigger focus and it is why it keeps me sane even though I do get overworked and pick up more bronchial infections, etc and people in my workplace think I am crazy at times. We have to have some passion that goes beyond ourselves I've found and for many the PhD is the beginning (or the end! :) ) of that passion. Hopefully the beginning...

I thought I might add also, that my children, from also thinking I am crazy, now are in complete support. And my daughter, who carried off a brilliant first in her field about three years ago, has decided to go for a scholarship and complete her full-time PhD at a top university here with a great supervisor. She followed me into teaching (her own choice-not my advice) but has now rethought her plans (am very happy about this myself). So it isn't all bad by any means-but it is tough and it does test you.