======= Date Modified 05 May 2012 23:36:30 =======
Hi Ian, sorry to hear that you are taking a break-or 'back seat'. I've enjoyed reading and adding to posts with you over the last couple of years and have thought that you always had an interesting and often quite different view on things, a unique and valuable perspective to offer.

I've got a few years to go with my study, (big sigh) so imagine I will haunt this forum for a while longer, although probably only making a quick visit on a once a week or fortnight basis (just a few too many balls in the air for me at the moment to do too much more). Perhaps I'll read your posts here and there in the future. All the best though with future plans, events and goals,

pjlu

My PhD requires all candidates to complete a Graduate Certificate of Research concurrently with the PhD. Seems annoying but actually it is a way of enforcing certain milestones are met quite swiftly-at least in draft form. At one of the recent seminars that I had to attend, given by an emeritus professor in data management (or something similar) the topic of PhDs by publication was brought up. Her position was that these are really hard to achieve, require several papers that represent many years worth of work and she had only met one person who had ever received one. That was some expert in forensics (in some specialty or other) who had been publishing expert papers in his field for around 18 years or more. Her contention was that it was actually easier to get a PhD by writing a thesis than it was to achieve the PhD by publication.

But it is also a catch 22 situation in that- it is hard to get papers published without a university affilliation. People want to know who you are and what your scholarly or professional history is. Likewise the process and the type of writing involved in publishing in professional journals and academic journals is also a little different. You know what its like-once upon a time, reading an ethusiastic and passionate piece by a practitioner in a professional or popularist journal was great. Now after having gone through (even for a short time or so) the mentoring/supervisor/publishing mill) you know that unless the data is good and the methodology is rigorous and the analysis is clear, you don't quite buy what the person is saying, no matter how persuasive the language or passionate the stance. That is what a PhD does for you. (Hope this makes sense-am on to my second glass of wine after a long break from any-due to work, study and illness).

Congratulations Potatoes-that's awesome! Have fun in your next three days prior to the new job!

I agree with the other posters, in that it might be a good idea to just complete the final chapters in the next few weeks and submit. Even if you do get 'major corrections and resubmit' from the examiners, at least you will be given some months to complete them before your viva. Can you stretch this 'three week' deadline into about five. Many deadlines can be tweaked by a week or three usually without it being a major event orrequiring an application?

Good luck with it all-don't lose heart

pjlu

======= Date Modified 14 Apr 2012 03:13:13 =======
Dotdot, you are hitting an ordinary hurdle at present-not a major wall and, after your week off, probably need to resume what sounds to be some excellent work habits blighted with the usual procrastinatory habits that we all have.

I've just come back from my first intensive three day Grad Cert Research Course designed for new PhDs and will share some of the wisdom from the lecturers who presented at this.

One-four year PhD roughly should look like this

Year 1 Lit Review, Methods Chapter, Ethics Application (if in human or life sciences or similar)
Year 2 Data collection (think about publishing paper from lit review or data or methods if possible)
Year 3-4 Mainly Write up-although writing up is probably something started in Year 1-don't try and write up in last few weeks whatever happens. (For every person who says they did this successfully, there will be countless dozens for whom this is a recipe for disaster).

Rule of thumb guide was:

Highly important activities (Rocks)
Research
Analysis
Writing
Moderately important activities (Gravel)
Reading and keeping up with literature of the field
Admin tasks
Low priority activities (sand)
Email
Formatting chapters (not these are not unimportant but are not as important or significant to progress as the first two and can be huge timewasters)

Things like exercise, eating correctly, maintaining relationships and having breaks so as not to get sick, carpel tunnel, gain weight or get bad back, etc essential. Breaks don't have to be long though. Turn off the sound to email warning so you don't get distracted and turn off social networking sites while working. My Tomatoes is a really good site according to many people here-it helps you manage sections of work so if you don't know about it, it might be worthwhile to check it out. I haven't used it so far but I can usually 'program' myself to work for a forty minute to hour stretch without too much of an issue, if I promise myself a quick reward. My Tomatoes just seems to formalise the arrangement and lots of people on this forum have given it rave reviews.

Just for the record, I seem to come across as far more confident than I feel, based on what people tell me-this is not intentional and is just my age and manner I think, I don't say an awful lot about myself at tutorials for example. However, when I was at the classes, all of the other PhD students seemed tremendously well informed about what they were doing so I think feeling intimidated can be really normal, especially if you are a younger PhD student (but this can also work if you are quite mature and coming back to uni after a while). These feelings are, in no way, useful guides as to whether or not you should quit. in my humble opinion they are very normal feelings that need to be felt and then packed away for a bit while you get on with things.

There is a great website of PhD cartoons called Piled Higher and Deeper that really makes me laugh everytime I feel a bit overwhelmed and seems to have a funny take on all aspects of the PhD. It might be helpful to check it out. And not having a grant yet doesn't make you or your work less valuable in any way-so please don't beat yourself up about this. You are not being fair to yourself and your persistence, talent and determination so far to get to this point. Take care of yourself and best of luck:-)

Hi Joanna, I just have to support what other posters have said about group exercise classes, community work, etc. And also about social identity. For example if you live in a smaller town and are not married, opportunities for socialising can be a little limited to the few pubs and nightclubs and these are hard to go to on your own. So it does make it a little harder but not impossible.

I'm a bit introverted but I do like company-so I can be fine by myself for a period of time but I need some social outlets as well. I have found that going regularly to Gyms (not the uni gym but a 'mainstream mixed sex gym', sports clubs,( running events or similar if you like this sort of thing) and dance clubs can really help. Sometimes it takes a little bit of time, if you are a quiet sort of person, to connect with people in these places, but generally even if you are quiet, after a while you will make connections. I used to have a personal life and professional life split-but now living in a smaller region, have found that this cuts off the potential for some rewarding friendships, so over the last two years or so-after my own long term relationship ended, I relaxed this 'rule' and have developed a few closer and more personal friendships (than just the usual friendly professional relationship) with like minded work colleagues that involve coffee, dinner, movies, etc.

The other thing I found really helpful was to stop 'beating myself up' when I didn't spend Saturday night partying or had experienced a quiet weekend with just study, exercise, a drive and perhaps a visit with or long phonecall with a friend. I kept reminding myself that when I had a partner, my Saturday nights were often still fairly quiet and sometimes not much fun at all-when the relationship had soured-and that other people didn't find me 'pathetic' so much as I did-making myself feel really badly with a lot of negative self-talk. Another thing that makes me happy is travelling-even small trips to stay with my family. I'm probably a bit older than you though, so I am hoping that these suggestions don't seem too depressing or inappropriate. Finally, 'swing dancing' seems to be lots of fun for singles, so if you can find a weekly swing class, it might be worthwhile to visit it.

Congratulations Doctor Naturalme, hope the celebrations are truly awesome: well done on your completion and brilliant results!

======= Date Modified 09 Apr 2012 01:42:54 =======
======= Date Modified 09 Apr 2012 01:40:52 =======
Hi Psychbraniac, Ive found that the PhD is as much about process as it is about product. The final product is important mainly in that it measures your progress as an independent researcher and it is the final outcome of rigorous and replicable academic and methodological processes. (As well as this it does make a small contribution to knowledge in the field).

Thus, you are working towards being an independent and autonomous researcher. Not a research student with a supervisor but an independent researcher. So the products or the research you produce may be excellent yet still not receive awards or much acknowledgement. Sometimes they will receive quite fierce criticism (from people who do not follow your beliefs or believe in a different model, etc), even if they are very good in and of themselves. No one will award you an A-and research awards are rare as well. Just getting something published in a good journal is like an 'A' but even then many people outside of research just go 'oh really, great' in a flat tone or simply don't comment at all because they have no real idea about how hard it is to do this and how much work goes into this sort of thing. If you are not self reliant regarding this sort of thing, then it would be very easy to stop doing it through lack of feedback or positive affirmation from friends and colleagues. (I'm making out that people are awful about it-they are not, but academic journals and research are really outside the scope of many people's real lives and they don't see them as really contributing to society, because they don't understand knowledge yet as a being a viable commodity or contribution or a gift of service, in the way that making a physical thing is or volunteering your time in a homeless shelter, etc).

You do have to work on becoming more intrinsically focused with regard to how things are going. By this I mean, self reliant...because to be independent in this regard means accepting that you believe in your own work and methodologies and will continue to work and improve even if nobody gives you much positive feedback. But it isn't easy changing that mindset and sometimes it is just a matter of being really resilient and toughing it out. Then when acknowledgements do come occasionally from peers, family or other researchers, they are all the sweeter.

You are very lucky in your workplace, in that your manager provides constant feedback and affirmation. Not all managers do this. Maybe (to go back to the academic issue) you could work out your own internal feedback and reward system-whereby if you finish your target academic chore on time and meet a deadline, then you reward yourself with some fun thing or pleasant activity or tiny gift. And there is a flip side to perfectionism that is highly positive and this is that is that you will strive to bring out an excellent thesis or product-so that is something to be really proud of.(gift)

Congratulations Jenni, that's awesome news(up) Well done for all your hard work.

I would echo many people's responses here:

1 See a counsellor- many of us have done this from time to time and as Delta said-you need to be able to talk about this and sort out your feelings and thoughts in an appropriate framework with an understanding professional. Right now, you are so upset, enmired and overwhelmed that you can't see beyond or around anything so it sounds as if you believe (perceptions) that you are trapped with nowhere to go. This is a very hard state to climb out of and-many of us go to a supportive person/mentor/professional to help us with the first steps.

2 Know that this is very common for many people doing this sort of thing-not everyone to be sure, but a really strong proportion. There is something about this intensive, self motivated extended form of research that seems to trigger self-doubt, depression, anxiety and fear in many of us. (Maybe someone should do a phd on it!).

3 Sorry that your parents are unsympathetic-my family and friends didn't understand just how bad it got for me in my final write up of Master's thesis and so I stopped talking about it to them-other that very occasional updates of the "Hoping to submit in a couple of weeks." or "no, supervisor wants me to rewrite this...". I stopped talking about the feelings and depression bit to them as well as their responses were basically " maybe stop doing it then..." and I knew they were tired of hearing about it. I understood that they still cared about me but really had no idea about the process so even though some responses weren't very positive, I did not take them too much to heart.

4 Set some boundaries around your work. You are going into the lab for 12 hours days and getting nowhere-reduce the time a bit and do some normal things that might help lift your spirits while you still continue with the Phd. Make sure you exercise, eat well and socialise a little with your boyfriend and friends (I am sure some of your friends would love to see you but maybe have stopped calling because they think you are busy). These sorts of things will give you more endurance to cope with the PhD when you do do it. And will make life itself better-as there are more things in life than a PhD or research project.

5 Stop comparing yourself to others. This is one of the most diabolical things for making oneself feel bad or miserable. This is your PhD, and your journey-it is unique to every doctoral student. What is important is that you come through it, not whether your supervisor seemed to like or favour another or approved their attendance at a conference and not yours. Competition in this sort of area is really unhelpful-it doesn't really contribute anything to this sort of research (in the way that competition in sports can be a helpful thing) and it seems to add to negative self perceptions as well.

6 Look at the positive things about yourself that have enabled you to get to this point. You are obviously a nice person who (when not bedevilled by an ogre of a phd and unsympathetic supervisor) who makes friends easily and has a great boyfriend. You are obviously intelligent and your track record is that you are a very capable student (or you would not have made it to this point). So scientific thinking doesn't come naturally to you-doesn't mean you can't do it or learn it-just means that your natural strengths perhaps lie in other areas. Good for you for taking on a scientific project and learning to extend yourself!

I'm not saying this meaning you should give up- I wouldn't give up if I were you at this stage because I think personally that you have invested a fair bit so far and it is more important that you get some support (Counselling of some sort) and help yourself (put some structure in around your activities and self-care practices) at the moment before you make any decisions like quitting.



(up)

Hi Havinalaugh. Just not wanting to do a PhD is a valid reason for walking away BUT can I be a bit of a devil's advocate here.

It must be really tough doing neuroscience, esp when it wasn't part of your foundation degree so I can imagine that your head is in a spin...however, with regard to training and support-as a doctoral student, I think the general thinking is that you are supposed to locate this yourself and then apply for it, etc. It isn't up to your team to do this for you. Are there any third or fourth year courses, or course work Master's units in the area, that you can sign up for OR sit in and audit to bring up your knowledge base in the next year? Some PhD course outlines or guides stress this aspect of the PhD 'training'. For example, in history, it was suggested that if you didn't have a second language by doctoral stage, then you should be learning one (just an example) or for students undertaking quantitative studies from an arts background-then statistics would be another course to sign up. I recognise that neuroscience is a formidable area but seriously, there may be some things you can do to help-just don't expect your supervisors to go out hunting them up for you-generally they leave it to you (in my experience that is).

Believe me, once you have collected data you will be analysing like crazy and once you are writing up in discussion your critical thinking skills will be a huge part of that-plus just doing the lit review and putting your research questions/hypotheses into the research framework will use a lot of critical analysis.

It sucks when you have a supervisor who isn't friendly-but it would be a bit like work. You can have a great manager to report to or you can have one that is really critical or a micromanager, or who values different qualities than the ones you excel in-and you end up having to make a choice-you can deal with it, jump through your unlikeable manager's hoops and not worry too much about their general 'niceness' or whatever beyond the immediate work situation (just compartmentalise), or you can try to find a new one. What I have found though, is if a manager or supervisor is formidable or not likeable- you will not be the only person who experiences this-so too will the rest of the world. Sometimes just knowing this fact helps a lot!

I would say 'hang in there' for a bit longer. PhD's are tough but they are valuable even if you don't want academia-they are not just for being an academic. If you want to publish articles, run a department or area in science, etc-then a PhD will actually help you with this.

But finally, it is your choice and if you really don't want to do it- or to do it right now (people do leave and complete a different one later in life) then those reasons are good enough. I have got to go now if I want to catch my 'spin' class...I find exercise both individual running and shared classes is probably the biggest most helpful thing that gets me through...so off I go and good luck. It is horrible being in the doldrums...I was there earlier this week not so much because of PhD stuff (that's going okay) but work issues and colleagues...but the thing is that these things pass and if you stay positive, they usually end well.

======= Date Modified 16 Mar 2012 09:17:01 =======
No problems Delta. If I can help or know a bit about it then, I'm happy to respond.

Sorry, tried to edit last post-usual types and can't fit last words in but it won't let me. :-)

Delta, what sorts of things do you want to know about? Universities, general life style and culture, weather...housing, etc. I currently live in Tasmania, tiny, cold island state-absolutely beautiful but a little remote at times and population just over the 500 000 mark. My university is old by Australian standards (but not by British)-its main campus is sandstone built in colonial-convict times. Tasmania, while beautiful and currently sporting a great wine and food industry (in term's of vinyards, cafes, boutique hotels and restaurants, etc)can be conservative and a little reserved compared to most Australian states and cities.

South Australia has several universities- University of Adelaide is the older established university there (the sandstone one), then there is Flinders and the University of South Australia. They are all okay from my limited knowledge obtained through word of mouth or when scouting for courses and research degrees. Adelaide, the capital city of South Australia has a population (for the city) of just over a million people. It is quite a pretty city built on the Torrens river and currently one of the mosts affordable capitals for housing in Australia. It is surrounded by some really nice hills and very cute touristy spots. Has a tramline (single tram I think) that takes you to the beach and it is very HOT!!!! in summer. Really really hot at times. Mild but chilly in winter-no snow or anything like that. It has a really nice arts festival and styles itself on being artsy in general. Most the people Ive met from there over the years have been really nice. It prides itself on being one of the only designed cities in Australia-it was laid out on a grid and traffic is good (meaning it doesn't take too long to drive anywhere).

Other Australians sometimes say that Adelaide is boring and suburban (not saying this myself folks-just repeating local quips.

Other states have larger cities (Melbourne and Sydney to start), obviously not as big as London, but still what you would think of as large cities with thriving arts, cultural and industrial centres but they tend to be a bit more expensive to live in and more difficult to negotiate. Ive lived in Sydney and being very close to Victoria (in my tiny island state) get over to Melbourne quite regularly (cheap flight-and only one hour), so I love both cities but would find living there a little hectic myself-loved Sydney though when I was younger.

Brisbane is really sultry and hot-lived there and loved it but very very hot. Came from Perth in the west originally when a very young person-wish I had never left but now the mining boom has forced house prices to virtually unaffordable and Perth is a little isolated-hours by air and days by car-from anywhere else but amazing beaches and a great city in general. Darwin- totally different- the University there is interesting and the main cultural life of the place (in an Educational sense) apart from indigenous and Asian cultural influences-multi cultural place so indigenous and Asian influences are strong in Darwin. Have not visited or lived in Canberra but it seems nice enough from speaking to others- as the political capital of Australia-a little suburban from what Ive heard but certainly has its charms. I think that the distances (geographically speaking) and the climate would be what would impact on you most on arrival to Australia. I love it-was born in the UK with an English German family who initially found Australia to be quite different from UK and Europe-but I do love Australia but also know that some people coming here find it a little different. Sometimes people from Britain get an odd sort of culture shock-but then others absolutely love it.

I think the universities though are probably similar to universities in the UK. Have a sibling who is a professor in the US, she seems to think the US system is quite different to the UK and it seems quite different to Australian universities as well-when we ha

If you have a lot of work completed under the original topic-enough to really support a thesis (or getting close to it) then I would make some inquiries about applying to self-fund your original topic at a different university. I have a colleague who worked for a few years on a thesis with one university and then finally (fed up with being a distance student and receiving little support) she approached another university with at least half of her thesis or more complete-including all of her data- and completed her final 18 months of write up with the new university. She was part-time so had spent three and a half years with the first university before parting ways.

I am not saying that for definites that you should go down this path-but I think you should explore it at least. And don't worry too much about what your current university think about it-while you are exploring this option, say nothing and go through the motions with them. If you do find a sympathetic institution (and believe me, universities can have very nice academics and support people working for them as well as the tricky ones), then find out what you would have to do to apply. If you did go down this road, you could always find a diplomatic way of phrasing why you needed to move on-thus keeping your job. The sooner you start taking a few small action steps to get yourself out of this, even just by making inquiries and sorting out your options, the sooner this hold that your current team have over you will be lessened. Good luck-if you have a good topic then it is worthwhile holding to it.