Hi Awang,

I think you can explore the same subject but the research questions would need to be different. I plan to be doing an extension of my Master's thesis for my doctorate and have already discussed this in a lengthy meeting with my proposed supervisor. However. the topic is clearly an extension of the findings of my Masters thesis. It is in the same area but I am further down the track, having made some findings in my master's that have led me to ask more pointed questions, to expand on the initial problem (broaden it out to a bigger group) and to collect a larger sample of participants and data that includes empirical as well as qualitative.

I would not have been able to design this topic without having completed my Masters and having got to this point. However, the questions really are different ones- questions that could only be set after having explored the initial set of research questions and made some findings from these.
I don't believe I could simply do the same questions and say I wanted to do some more research because it wasn't enough and use a few more theoretical perspectives. However, on the other hand, people do apply to have their Masters topic upgraded to a PhD thesis simply because they discover it is much bigger than they thought. So maybe this would be a way that you could do it. In which case you probably would rescind your Masters-which would turn into the PhD. This is my understanding of how things seem to work in the universities I have either studied at or checked out in Australia.

Does that make sense?

Bibliophilus, do you have your topic yet? What I mean is when reading your initial post, it is hard to tell what part of the dissertation is the blocker at the moment...

Usually, your topic tends to define your research-as to the scope and preferred methodology. You are science though aren't you. Hence no undergrad essays in your non-UK university-so it is easy to see why you might be daunted at present.

This might sound simplistic but once you have your topic (or an idea of it), you basically read everything you can find on it (but only on it-don't get sidetracked) for your lit review. But you might be beyond this now...and looking at actual data collection? Your topic would also tend to define how you collect your data, so to some extent your rough methodology would be sketched in prior to completing the lit review-even if you finetuned it and changed it during the actual collection of data.

The introduction and question or line of inquiry, the lit review and the methods section are the big three-they are like the three challenges you have to overcome in most children's stories. Once you have tackled them, you are able to progress further.

Writing up the data, I found, and analysis was a long time and difficult, but because the first three parts or chapters of your dissertation are pretty much completed (bar tweaking and editing), you sort of know where you are headed and it is just a question of knuckling down it.

If you are following the guidelines in the book that was recommended, what stage would you be at right now?
What is the next stage that follows? Can you identify that next step and break it into daily tasks for a week? If your supervisor is really unhelpful, is there someone else who can provide some support?

I hope my last post did not make you feel worse-it wasn't intended that way-more to indicate how when you are in the middle of something and fighting blind in a forest of fears, it can be hard to know what to do, where to go until you are out of the forest. (So the decisions about future need to be made once you are out of the forest-not while you are in the thick of it). Hope things are okay...

Seeing as this post is still going, I thought I would add another point to Biblio's self-questioning or soul searching about the worth of it. I think it was Ady who said you should complete then make decisions with degree behind you. Would have to agree 100 percent with this. It might be different when doing a doctorate (as it takes so many years of one's life). People do stop doing a doctorate and sometimes that is the best and only decision, given their own hopes and life circumstances. PhD's can take up to a decade for many people...but with the Master's you have come so far anyway, and you can probably get a month or two extension without too much drama at all.

When my Master's thesis went over time (eventually by around almost 3 months!), being fairly compulsive (back then-I'm different now) about deadlines, I found this really hard to take but was reassured by supervisor and admin staff that what I was doing was very common-it just wasn't written up in the handbook. It then took ages to be examined...lot's of people around me questioned the whole process when they saw my stress and real emotional turmoil towards the end.

However, now, having given myself a break of 12 months between submission and starting doctorate, I am really happy that I stuck with it. And it does open doors. I am giving a 20 minute paper at a National Conference in September (purely on aspects of my thesis and findings) and have been invited to write a chapter in an edited book aimed at beginning teachers in an area that is close to my area but a bit to the right of it...if you know what I mean. None of these things would have happened without this Masters and completing the thesis. When attending work conferences, I am far more confident about all that I do and far more critical (not in a horrible way-just in a detached but intellectual way) about the presenters. And finally I was invited to take on an acting role at my workplace for a month, that was very high level indeed, and am certain that it wasn't just because I could do the job (competency) but also because I could manage more than one large process, commit and see it through. The qualification also really helped for this role. So it is worth it...it does open doors and I am so glad I finished. I have no doubt that I will feel the same about the doctorate in five to six years time.

Hope the thesis is progressing Biblio-good luck and cheers(up)

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[quote]Quote From Cornflower:

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The thing is, my supervisor is a genuinely kind person and is very emotionally intelligent. I guess there is probably a lot in his life that is worrying him but it's quite sad to think that he can't talk to me about it, and that things might be this way for the next 2 1/2 years. I am mostly concerned that problems I've had really have damaged my relationship with him.



I wouldn't think your problems have damaged your relationship with him. You are a person and are allowed to have problems. However, I don't think expecting or wishing that he would share his problems with you, is a realistic expectation. And maybe he is just setting a boundary because your relationship did seem so friendly at first and he has thought ' oh oh, this might be too friendly'-not implying here sexual-just too friendly for a supervisor and student relationship. Especially once you really get into the sticky end of the thesis where the supervisor becomes really critical and you hate them! Just a thought...


I'm hoping this works- I seem to be completely inept with the quote function!

Hi Zak.

I'm going to start one in a few months and have gone from the 'power and the passion' to the 'ho hum' and back again with this question-if you get my drift. Gone full circle from having aspired to start one for years to realising that it is going to be a 's**tload of work basically and will take me a minimum of six to seven years part-time, so I really should want to do it. Gone from wanting to be immersed in every aspect of it-all the time to the 'hmmm' guess I better really start going through my literature I guess...(from the Masters). Gone from wanting to tell everyone I was going to do one-how exciting- to wondering whether I really need to mention it at all??? Possibly in some situations-yes.

Basically, it is really up to you. For some careers, yes it is absolutely mandatory for progression to have one...for my career and life stage...no it isn't. But I want to do one and it will give me more opportunities plus will enable me to explore a social project-so I will but I sure as heck will ensure that my life has balance most of the time. Sure every now and then, things will get a bit stressful and I'll drown in the sheer awfulness of it at times, but in general, I think I'm going to be fairly rational in my approach and ensure I don't use it as an excuse to avoid other aspects of life that need attending to (bit of a habit of mine at times) or to occasionally have fun, socialise and just be with other people at times.

And hoping at the end of it that I feel as happy as some of the posters on this thread about having done it. So for me it is a maybe...really depends on what you want and why you want it. It doesn't determine your intelligence-even though you need to be smart to get to base level and begin one-probably more tests your perseverence and motivation than any thing else. Hope things become clearer for you as you think about it all and have a short break from the previous study.:-)

Hi Rob, I think it is possible but just a bit more of a challenge. By this I mean, taking my own experience as an example: my Master's thesis opened up my potential doctoral project for me and when putting in my doctoral proposal, I found all of the thinking and research done in my Master's will be used as a foundation for my new study. I have even been accepted to give a conference paper at a National conference later this year (in OZ) based on the Master's thesis. (Something I am happy to do-even though nervous-because in this little area, I do know my stuff to some extent).

Because my studies are in the same area as my full time work, but are at a slight tangent to them, (they are sort of related but not directly related), I contemplated undertaking a different but related field that was absolutely in line with my present role and position for the doctorate. However, it is hard to do (not impossible but hard) because, I would need to really immerse myself in the literature in a new area before putting the proposal together and figuring out whether there truly were gaps, etc. And when I first began thinking about Phd's and EdD's, I didn't know as much as I do now and could say things with more confidence-even when I knew very little about them-I had more confidence in gut hunches. The Masters has made me realise what I do know but also how much I don't know-so I am less likely to want to put in a vague proposal in a different area on a hunch and a 'little bit of fishing' sort of research. My thinking and approach has been changed by doing the Masters.

However, having said all this, it isn't impossible-people seem to do this all the time and if you have the passion, the drive, the energy and the time then why not go for it(up). Good luck with your explorations and final decisions.

Hi Dan, online sources sound good. Can I offer some advice that I've worked out for myself over the last 18 months (I was in a relationship for 13 years before that and a marriage for 5 to 7 a couple of years prior to the last one).

So I'd forgotten some of the things and rules that I had worked out for dating, boyfriends, and fwb when I was young and single (before we had a term for fwb) and before these other long term relationships began and ended for me.

So I got caught up in a bit of a 'hot-cold' situation with a colleague and was really finding this hard to deal with. I finally did the 'upfront' thing and called him on it (because the hot cold stuff was driving me crazy and I had lost faith in my intuition about these sorts of things after having been in a difficult relationship for some years).

I spent some time emailing and being friendly to see whether I was imagining things and then requested some private time so that we could discuss things. I found out during this time, being fairly upfront (God it was hard!!)to find that when put on the spot he admitted he had been a bit interested but was in a 'break' and had now resumed his relationship with his long term partner. Before he could start to go on-I called a halt to all intimate discussion about his relationship difficulties as in inappropriate (for all of us including his partner), determined the extent of our interactions in the future and exited with dignity feeling pretty awful really. He was concerned about this and emailed, etc and while I chose not to discuss our interactions with regard to relationships on a person to person level again-we did sort it out in writing. I distanced myself-sometime later we resumed friendly interactions-because I liked him and I think he liked/s me but nothing very close.

But what really got to me was the on/off hot cold thing...it hooks you in and renders the vulnerable romantic part of your personality really open to quite a bit of hurt. I decided to review my early life rules-where generally I could spot a player at twenty paces so to speak- and that is to avoid ambivalent or ambiguous people. Generally when people like you and are able to engage in a relationship or commit, they don't go hot and cold.
People who do are not available-either emotionally, or physically or for some other reason. And why would you want to waste your time on anyone who is not available (your valuable time)- mentally have a list of little red flags-and when these go up-you say 'next' and move on. (I'm not talking about friendship here-but relationships. As it happens, I still have a friendship with this person and would be one of the people he likes and trusts on staff but the friendship is nothing that would come close to interfering with his relationship or to preventing me from developing one with someone who truly is available and interested. People who are interested-really interested in you- they let you know. After some time, there is no doubt, particularly if you are open to a relationship-people can tell this sort of thing. (PS- sorry my post is so long but it has been therapeutic for me writing it and hopefully someone else gets something out of it as well-if they can be bothered reading it all that is).

Sorry Joyce, I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective with regard to the supervisor and thoughts around this. Not to say that I disagree with all that you have said or that you haven't made some great points but I have a different view on the behaviour of the supervisor.

Julia, I think maybe, the other uni experience has made you just a little sensitive regarding whispers, etc. People may whisper or sometimes express gossip, etc-but this is generally because people just behave like this. They behave like this no matter who they are and what exalted profession they have. It is just normal (not pleasant but normal) behaviour for groups of people. I teach in a high school and most students begin practising their skills in around Year 7 to hone them to a devastating effect on many of their peers by Years' 8 and 9!

Adults continue this sort of behaviour but mask it to some extent and so often when it occurs, we think-'oh, has this got to do with me having come from another uni and have they discussed me, etc.' Maybe they have but that is in the past, it doesn't matter now and really everyone needs to move on. So don't let the 'whispers' get you down. Chances are they are not about you anyway-stuff like this can make people feel far more sensitive and paranoid about things so we add 2 + 2 and get 5-if you get my drift. Most workplaces gossip to some extent and you have to just deal with it and not get too involved in feeling bad about it. I have found though through experience, if you don't gossip or put down others randomly just to fit in then most people like and trust you far more. And if you have to vent your feelings or discuss someone else's behaviour, you find someone you trust who will listen and not pass it on.

Your supervisor sounds out of line and as if she has no people skills or is under some form of stress, mid life crisis, whatever fits... You would have to do the safety training, so that is something you need to take care of-but as for her attitude and approach-it is horrible. You don't deserve it. You have a new supervisor, who sounds like they are far more supportive, embrace this fact. Just be civil to the old supervisor- I wouldn't give her any little gifts. I just get a gut feeling that if this person is a bully and their behaviour sounds like they are, then this sort of behaviour just sends the wrong message. Be polite and move on and out of her reach. You are not cursed but people who like to bully have an innate talent for spotting a person that is an easier target.

This means they can get away with it more easily. I wouldn't go to court. I would get on with my new supervisor and get down to work. What you will also find is that most people around you will be quite aware of this person's difficult behaviour but they won't want to get involved because it can make their lives too difficult. This doesn't make them mean-just human. They have their own lives and don't want to make their work or study a working hell.

Try not too doubt yourself too much and just get on with your task-your project and your Phd.

If you have got this far then undoubtedly you can research, write and submit a sound thesis. And the paper that you mentioned that you completed wasn't a 'miracle' or one off - no wonder it was hard to do after the loss of someone close to you. The thesis doesn't have to be extraordinary-just thorough, well researched and clearly written. You can do that but you do need to stop the cycle of negative thoughts that basically form the last couple of sentences of your fourth paragraph. They are not true-just fears- your critical inner voice. Many of us have had such fears and still do at times, but you can't let that sort of thinking stop you. (I had several points during the writing of my Masters thesis when I questioned myself and really wondered why I was putting myself through the whole thing. Sometimes the only thing that got me through or past some points was my determination to finish the thing-I am reasonably academic in my approach and nature, still I don't think that I would be the only person who felt like this. I think it is fairly common).

Ady's very sound advice about the academic support is great, but also her comment that you need to complete and then make any future decisions with the Masters behind you rather than in front. You can do it-you just need to commit and keep going-one step at a time.

Honey_bee, when you say 'wont be able to do what he is asking', what do you mean? Do you mean that one month isn't enough time to complete the changes?

It would not be unusual to go over the stated timeframe in any research thesis. So to go into your third year, even if it is an MPhil, is not that unusual nor is it the end of the world. Many people do this in order to complete and pass their thesis, whether it be at Research Master's, MPHIL or PhD or Doctorate, and as Bilbo said, if you want this, then you need to make the changes. Bilbo is also absolutely right when she says that the supervisory panel's approval is not the same as your supervisor's. Your supervisor is trying to help you pass-whereas the panel were basically approving your plan and acknowledging that your results seemed sound.

But the thesis is not just the research or the results- a huge part of it is the writing, thinking and shaping of your work into a text-the thesis. So some of these steps that seem so hard and just unreasonable are actually important parts of the process that everyone goes through to some extent.

Can you have another chat with the supervisor, look at what needs to be done and then if it takes a bit longer than a month, negotiate an extension that is reasonable from both of your perspectives?

Hi Snowdrop,

I'm 47 and will start my doctorate later this year-early next. I will do this part-time as I do not want to give up my full time job, have a mortgage and need to put together some dollars for later in life and so I can do a bit of travelling and home renovation now. Sounds pretty exciting (and yuppyish) but I can assure you up until the last year or so, I have gone through huge financial struggles to get where I am now and to bring up my children-and all of those lovely things will be done at a very modest level (much more so than most of my colleagues).

So you go for it! (up) I thought about the full time thing but probably wouldn't be able to survive on the scholarship with present commitments. However, Ive been inspired previously by women who have done this-gone full time-been older when they started and finished-and have met with much success...one of these women-who now would be at retirement age is doing a second Phd to essential write a history and get some funding for it.

As for cycling- whatever you like-all of the keen cyclists in my area wear those full on cycling suits that are like a second skin and cost the earth, no one seems to care what they look like -well actually they do- it seems to be a status thing to wear them and to be part of the cycling club. But wear what you feel comfortable in. I run in tshirts and lycra exercise pants-simply because most of those short baggy running shorts are far too breezy-it is only exercise and it is only a body finally when you come down to it-we all have one. However, I don't wear those things at other times...cheers and have lots of fun....

Hi Barbarah,

The suggestion re- student services sounds really good. Given what you've said about your introductory chapter, I can see why you are unsure. Look, I've not written a doctoral thesis-just a Masters but I had an introductory chapter that had an overview and introduction to the field-which was like a small lit review-then the actual lit review was a second very substantial chapter that followed the first one. Methods chapter followed that. But the intro had a 'background to the research that outlined major authors in the field and the key issues and questions, pointing out the gaps in the field and then a bit of why I had selected my 'qualititative methodology-, etc.

Whereas lit review chapter was basically an indepth review of the policy background for around 40 years (very tedious). Each citation or author group (as in Jones & Jones, 2006; Owers, 1998) had to be integrated into the review in a way that made it clear how they shed light on and supported my overall argument and the research questions. I wrote the review before the case studies and then had to majorly reshape both intro and lit review after I had completed my cases and methods chapter over a few months.

But you are doing a theoretical study or critical study aren't you-not an empirical qualitative one.
So some things would be different-but the lit review part would be similar. Are your supervisors happy with the number of authors-or the quantity of research you have read? Is it just actually getting a synthesis of all the literature that is the problem? (Saying 'just'-don't mean it as 'just' it is bloody hard-meaning instead 'specifically', synthesising all of the background research into a coherent text that convinces the reader that your cases provide a unique insight or perspective into a current issue, problem or question.

I don't think Ive been particularly helpful so I will sign off now-hope things improve after a short break and perhaps some support from the student centre or student mentor. Take care of yourself and hang in there-personally though, don't feel bad about getting further support from supervisors-governments hand over huge amounts of money to universities every time a doctoral or research student gets through...it is part of their job.

Barbarah, which chapter is it that 'needs more depth'? Can you be more specific? i know you are talking about the 'writing regression' but this is really vague-do you think your examiners were talking about the content of your chapter, the interpretation-links back to the theory-or more the organisation and actual technical aspects of the writing.

You may well be able to get some support from people here with your writing if they know more about it.

(PS-writing regression comment sounds like some stupid academic generality that is basically a throw-away line from a busy academic-and is meaningless-sort of like the common teacher report comment-'could try harder'-true for about 75% of the high school population!!. Just move on from that bit emotionally if you can).

I have a friend and work colleague who is at the tail end of her part-time PhD after many years. Her work is excellent but due to the extent of time for her studies, about three years ago she got a new supervisor (the old one left the institution and went somewhere else) who is just really unsupportive in lots of 'passive aggressive' sorts of ways.
It is really hard for her but she has kept in touch with her old supervisor and also has a friend's husband (academic in completely different discipline) and both of these experienced academics actually are the ones who read her work, support her and discuss where she needs to make changes or clarify things. The support from these people is what is keeping her going. She is able to be annoyed and upset occasionally about her present supervision but is not totally gutted by it. She is giving papers and attending conferences, etc as well.

My point here is 'can you be sneaky about this' and line up a second supervisor on a pretext of some sort or can you strike up some form of friendly informal relationship with another academic and get some support and guidance from them?

I know you are in a lab so can understand that the poor communication bit with regard to practical things you are doing is really hard to overlook. You probably have to deal with that in some practical way but with the lies and favouritism-can you ignore this sort of thing to some extent?

Your counsellor might have some really good 'official advice' to give you from the official view point. Personally I wouldn't antagonise your supervisor and would overlook the small stuff but neither would I cover for them either-I'd be a bit upfront about the communications issues in a diplomatic way and call them on it through email or personal conversation each time it happened with a significant item or process. In a sort of 'I know you're busy so you might have overlooked this-but I don't think I got a copy of your email-or memo-or whatever regarding my blah blah-could you just forward it to me (or if it is verbal) clarify for me - it just means this, etc, etc. Most people don't like being called on something they have overlooked but when faced with your reasonable and pleasant, but persistent approach, will comply. You might have to do what you think is pestering a bit...do it...you shouldn't have to do it but as the poster below said-academia (and the non-academic workplace) has many such situations like this and the reality is we all have to find ways of working with difficult people. Your supervisor sounds like he is a difficult person to some extent-and this is really unlikely to change.

Oh and if you get the sorts of comments from the favoured people in the lab when you quietly grumble or wonder why YOU didn't get some email or information-you know the sorts of comments
"Really, (doubtful and innocent expression) but they are always great with me..." (inference is it just must be you who has the problem) don't believe it for a second-the person is either really naive and doesn't want to believe their friend, mentor or colleague is favouring them and being difficult for you OR they know full well and and are just lying to themselves because it is easier that way. Good luck-I hope this doesn't seem too negative btw-not meant to be. It is just that it is really hard to change the behaviour of difficult people in the workplace, Ive found you have to call them on it in a pleasant way and find ways to work around the problem and to not take it personally as well. Pretty hard but once you do that things get a bit easier for you...:-)

Oh and I forgot- just was re-reading the bit where you mentioned the ethics-I had included information about how I would deal with the ethics side on the longer proposal and found I just had to ditch that bit completely when I edited it, if I wanted my edited version to be coherent and make sense.
The Faculty PG research coordinator has received it and will forward the whole deal onto the main research group once my referees are through. I'm gathering from her email (only received it a day or so ago) that the form was fine-so I wouldn't worry about this approach.

(What I did do-because like you seem to be, I tend to worry over these things a little- I included my longer proposal in with all of the documentation, supporting paperwork, CV and copies of degree testamurs, etc-so they could read that if they wanted to. Apparently they won't necessarily read it according to their forms-but I did it anyway).

Good luck with it all btw(up)