Overview of pm133 on PostgraduateForum.com

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Signup date: 08 Jan 2016 at 12:02am

Last login: 30 Mar 2021 at 8:40pm

Post count: 1246

pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:
pm133 & ToL:- that's interesting/useful, I didn't really know about the ins and outs of it - always just thought fewer was better.

It can certainly diminish your contribution if you are eighth in a list of 14 authors.
The way round this of course is to have a seperate supplementary document detailing which author did which work. This would be invaluable information but of course many academics would fight this because it would highlight how little some contribute. Interestingly, under that scheme, in the paper where you were omitted, it would have been obvious you needed to be added because the question from the editor would be "who collected the data?".

I would like to make one other point about your posts above Tudor. You have gone out of your way to play down your contribution to that paper you were not listed as author on. I would strongly urge you to never do that. Academia is absolutely brutal enough without you doing this to yourself. From what you describe, you performed absolutely crucial work for this person. Without your contribution they would not have a paper of anywhere near the same quality. I know that culturally we have a habit of being humble and downplaying our contributions but academia isn't the place to be doing that. Shout from the rooftops or you risk being left behind when funding is handed out. I personally wouldn't have hesitated in adding you.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:
No one is telling me that. Why?

You seem very sure that it matters. I was wondering what you were basing that on. If I am wrong to say it doesn't matter at all then I'd be interested in knowing. From my research into this from talking to people who have both failed and secured fellowships, I know that first and corresponding authorship certainly matters hugely but the number of names affects neither first or corresponding authors. I used that knowledge to ensure I was 1st author in almost all my papers with the rest demonstrating collaboration with wider groups - a balanced diet you might say.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:

Quote From SnowDay:

Today I got a paper draft back from my supervisor. They had seen a previous version and made some minor comments and changes... Today the whole thing has been re-written. I've asked to meet tomorrow to find out why the changes are suddenly so drastic, and if I can have some general advice to find out where my writing is apparently going so wrong lately. If I can't stop the total re-writes, at least I can find out why the changes are so big and hopefully work on any problems in my own work!

Hey SnowDay! Good idea to raise it in the meeting! This actually sounds a bit too extreme - totally rewriting! It seems as though they are treating it as if it is their own work, instead of yours! I wouldn't assume that your writing is bad at all. I'd feel more inclined to assume that your supervisor gets a bit carried away with editing their students' work! If I were you, I'd tell them that you really appreciate the feedback they're giving, but in order so that you can develop your writing skills and improve, please could they limit the main feedback to comments (rather than direct editing) - which you can then read, and apply changes yourself.

Is this where I am allowed to say "I told you so"? :-D
On a serious note though, a supervisor physically re-writing anything you have written is a classic sign of control freakery. It is never a good sign. For a PhD student it is an absolute red line because if you allow it to happen once, the supervisor will never stop and it becomes their PhD not yours. That is why I was so strong in my condemnation of it in my earlier post. It is intolerable and must be dealt with ASAP.

Mind you, there are countless supervisors out there actually writing full papers for their students, even where the student is 1st author. I would never feel I had earned my PhD under those circumstances.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:
Great that you made a decision ToL! Stimulating thread this!

It isn't ridiculous pm133. It was completely acceptable in the context. I still interact now with those I was working for/with then, and I will do the same myself when I am in a position to! In my area of research, it does matter how many names are on a paper (especially if the person has not published much - or has only published papers where their name is one among many). I wasn't told this (or lied to about it) - I already knew it mattered. And I didn't expect to be on a paper unless I was contributing to it, rather than just collecting data, as I generally was doing.

Just to add - many papers have an acknowledgement section on, where various people (often students) are acknowledged for their assistance with data collection, coding, reliabilities etc. It really isn't so unusual.

Who is telling you that it matters how many names are on a paper when you are either first or corresponding author?

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Dunham:
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Quote From pm133:

Providing comments is one thing. Actively editing a poster is not on.

True, I totally agree with you that they should not actively edit a poster, but one should keep in mind that almost every comment by a supervisor will result in changes. Yes, you are the one editing it but it will still be according to your supervisors comment. I doubt that there are many supervisors who let you present something with their name on it that they think of as suboptimal. The same is true for the writing. Read the final paper version and then again the first draft you sent to your supervisors. Unless you are an incredibly gifted writer who naturally has the writing style of the supervisor, those versions will be very different. So did I really write that paper in the end? ;)

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I understand what you are saying but the changes would need to be in my own words and I would need to agree to them as well. I have never blindly accepted my supervisors opinions and in fairness to him he always made "suggestions" and asked what I thought. He never forced anything unless I was absolutely wrong about something. Also, his change requests were in the line of "you need to say something about X" or he would say "you need to tighten up the language in this area here". The words were always mine. Also a piece of work from him would usually be nothing more than a starting point. The finished work would be largely things I had added from that starting idea. As time went by, I stopped asking him to check my ideas and started telling him what I was working on. It made for a great working relationship. So in answer to your point, in my case, I absolutely wrote every single word of everything I published ;-D

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

I would never agree to this.
During my PhD you would have been hard pressed to get me to talk about ongoing work until it was published. Anyone even thinking of asking me to hand over an entire 40 page manuscript prior to publication would have been rewarded with peals of laughter from me.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:
Sorry to hear SnowDay. Imposter syndrome is just horrible. Can you take a little break and do something else that is fun and takes your mind off it all? Maybe even go away for the weekend? I find that things like that help me when I feel I can't take much more.

That must be annoying when your supervisor edits everything directly. My new supervisor did that to something I'd written, but she said feel free to change it back. Does your supervisor say anything like this? And are the changes mostly to do with the style/appearance or are they more substantive?

I find pm133's approach a bit extreme (no offense pm133!). You get on well with your supervisor, so if this is something that is really getting to you, chances are that you can raise it with him and it'll be taken well (although it might feel a little awkward at the time). Another thing you could do (if you would rather not confront it in a really direct way) would be to change some of it back and just say you know, thanks for this, it was really helpful. I've made a few further changes and switched a few bit back as I actually preferred them before, I hope you don't mind. That would gently but clearly suggest please don't do this so much in the future! One of those things would probably sort things out on that front, or at least improve them.

I don't know if this is helpful, but keep your chin up - things'll get better. And you're not imposter! No more than any of the rest of us anyway!

Tudor

Don't worry, I am never offended by someone taking an opposing view to my own. :-D

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:
I collected data and did the stats for a project - and wasn't added to the paper! No hard feelings! I was learning and getting paid... I was a part-time RA... I wasn't formally part of the research group at the time... the person I was doing it for was an early stage researcher, and stood more to gain by being a single author (or one of a small number of authors) than adding me on when I was simply a student following instructions (and gaining experience and dosh). Some people might find this extreme judging by comments on this thread. But really - I had no say in the original idea for the project and didn't make any substantive decisions about anything... I was just doing a favour and getting experience for myself. That's how things are done in my department.

If, on the other hand, I'd grown really interested in the work, and had some ideas of my own, and fed them in, and we'd come up with new ideas together of what to pursue next... maybe applying for a PhD under that person's supervision, I think that would have been different... I'd have had some ownership for the project, and would probably have been asked to write up the intro and results or something (and be a named author) - or design a poster (and be a named author on that).

It is ridiculous that you were not included on any paper for this project if you did more than a few hours of work, Your future career would have been helped by inclusion. It's extraordinary that you are cool with it and that you seem to be happy to consider the early stage researchers career given that they clearly used you for personal benefit without considering you at all but that is your choice I suppose. It would have made zero difference to have included you. Whoever told you otherwise is lying to you. You have been used I'm afraid. In a brutal industry, there is no honour in allowing others to do this to you for their sole gain. This person may well be your competitor for funding in a couple of years. You should always remember that.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:
Ps. If you did add them, you would have to invite them to be further involved... they'd have to contribute to the poster and the paper as an author (or at least check it over to say they were happy with it - which would seem odd given that it is your work/they're not the supervisor).

Not necessarily. I have a person in my author list for one of my papers who contributed early on in a project but then moved to another job outside science. They had no hand in the review of the paper. The journal assumes they have no problem with the paper unless they hear from each author. He was included because he was part of the team collaborating on the work. It cost me precisely 10 seconds to add him to the list of authors (of which there were 4). I didnt spend days agonising over it. It wasnt a difficult decision. You contribute to my paper in a meaningful way and you get your name on it. I cant see why on earth people would get all precious about this stuff. Rightful inclusion is not only ethical, it prevents all manner of unneccesary problems in the future and everyone knows exactly where they stand on day one. For a young Masters student to know their name is going on the paper is a massive thrill. They work hard for me, they earn the recognition which comes from it. That goes for any "technicians" too. I dont use the phrase "just" when describing someone else helping me out. Maybe that is why I dont see a problem with adding them.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From TreeofLife:

Quote From pm133:

Then the only question you need to ask is whether you could have progressed to where you are now on the project without them.
If not, you have a duty to include them in the author list. This is a complete no brainer from where I am sitting.

Well, of course I could have. In a fraction of the time. I just wouldn't have been able to work on it until the summer, so I would haven't any progress right now, if that's what you mean.

Yes, I meant right now. Look at what you have right now. Remove the student's contribution. What do you have left?

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From Tudor_Queen:

Quote From TreeofLife:
[quote]
Yes I would do this if I was adding them to the author list. I agree this is a requirement.

Then I think that answers your question in a round about kind of way. It is entirely up to you. Do you wish to continue to supervise/collaborate further with this person, or would you rather leave it at that.

Are you suggesting ToL makes this decision based on whether they want to work with that student again?

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From TreeofLife:

Quote From pm133:
3 things concern me here ToL.
Firstly, you used the phrase "just a Masters student".
Seconldy, you have admitted using a Masters student to do essentially technician level work which you dont want to do.
Finally, you say it us common for Masters students to be given work that others have done before because they are expected to fail anyway.

I think there is a serious problem here and it appears to be systemic within your department. Masters students are supposed to be engaging in proper research in preparation for the workplace or a PhD, not just fobbed off with routine work. It sounds like your department's Masters students are being seriously short changed.

Have I misunderstood something here?

Let me clarify:

1. Just a masters student, because it's a 4 month research project at the end of a taught undergraduate masters. I don't think there's a requirement for original contribution to research in undergraduate projects. A research masters is different - these students have their own original projects.
2. It's not technician level work, it's PhD/postdoc level work - that's one of the reasons I need to provide a lot of guidance.
3. Not because they are expected to fail anyway, because it's such a short time period they are unlikely to achieve much.

I

Then the only question you need to ask is whether you could have progressed to where you are now on the project without them.
If not, you have a duty to include them in the author list. This is a complete no brainer from where I am sitting.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Sorry to hear about this. It is never nice to hear about someone struggling.
You may need to consider letting time do the heavy lifting on this. It seems clear that you have failed to clear the PhD hurdle several times over the last 3 years. It is telling you that perhaps you are not ready for this just yet. My advice would be to take a break, be brutally honest about why you have failed this time and maybe go and something else for a few years before trying again in a few years.
There is no shame in failing a PhD. Many do.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

Quote From thp043:
I am a mechanical engineering undergrad. My CGPA is around 3.15 (out of 4). I have a good research background with 4 conference papers and one journal paper( IF 4+) in material science. In remaining 6-7 months, maybe I can manage another journal paper. I have wasted my first 2.5 years in undergraduate school, and then have tried to come back. But the damage has been done. Now I want to do my PhD from a top university. For that I want to do my MS at first in a not-so-top university. Which universities are achievable my me? I am from Bangladesh and will try for fall 19. Oh, I think I can manage good GRE score, LORs. Thank you.

I have no idea what you consider either a "top" university or a "not so top" university to be because I have no idea what criteria you are applying but you will get your answer when you start putting applications in.

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pm133 1246 posts
7 years ago

3 things concern me here ToL.
Firstly, you used the phrase "just a Masters student".
Seconldy, you have admitted using a Masters student to do essentially technician level work which you dont want to do.
Finally, you say it us common for Masters students to be given work that others have done before because they are expected to fail anyway.

I think there is a serious problem here and it appears to be systemic within your department. Masters students are supposed to be engaging in proper research in preparation for the workplace or a PhD, not just fobbed off with routine work. It sounds like your department's Masters students are being seriously short changed.

Have I misunderstood something here?

Overview of pm133

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