Overview of pm133

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Very depressed over typos in Phd thesis...
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A serious question given all the posts about typos above. Are you talking about spelling errors or grammatical errors? Surely everyone uses a spell checker for the first?

Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc
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Quote From AOE26:

Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed.
Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills?
How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?


I would list 3 essential skills. Without those you cannot do the role(s) I have. If after 6 months no one had those skills I would have to re-evaluate the role I have available - is the compensation the blocker? Does the combination I require compliment each other? Is it a location issue? Remember these are essential - I do not use the word lightly! I am happy to be flexible/train the next 15 skills!

What I usually find is that the role I have is fairly industry standard but people kid themselves they have the skills. They have the buzzword on their cv, know roughly what it means but when you push them for their experience they have none.

Not wanting to sound ancient but in my time I have employed 40-50 people I'd guess. It's not a particularly enjoyable process, agents are woefully unskilled - I may as well vet all the cv's myself. Candidates seem unable to write 2-3 pages of a cv without a plethora of errors - I am not joking when I say I have seen probably 20 cv's that have a personal summary at the beginning about being a great communicator only for that statement to be grammatically wrong! People not turning up for interviews.. or clearly lying.. or unable to look smart for an hour.

Remember you may be nervous as the candidate but what the interviewer wants is to walk into the room and meet someone they like, matches their cv and is trustworthy.


I used to recruit software engineers in my previous career. I started up a recruitment business during that time as well and used to the candidates myself before sending their CV to the client. That worked because I was an experienced software engineer myself.
That worked out quite well but I didn't enjoy trying to find suitable candidates and packed it in. Your experience mirrors mine in terms of the quality of CV. In general they were dreadful. It was very common for clients to ask for 10 essential skills. They would specify ESSENTIAL skills on one job spec as follows: 5-10 years experience of C, C++, Java, Linux, Perl, PHP, HTML, CSS, a few specific microprocessors, several specific embedded operating systems. That was just the essentials. All for a salary of £25k to £50k. Some clients even specify the type of University you must have graduated from AND they wanted only those who scored all top grades at school even if you had a PhD. Honestly it was a nightmare. In my book, if you have more than 2 to 3 essential skills then you are not thinking properly about the person you want to hire so I like the fact you only look for 3.

Lost
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Quote From aysegul:
Well, pm133 and all of you <3, I couldnt stop my tears when I read that. Exactly... sometimes I laugh at all but sometimes it cant be possible. we are on our own and noone cares yes. but on the other hand I see we have each other. Thank you it makes me relieved to hear from you. I came to end, writing my thesis and waiting for lab results I hope it will be over soon.


You are welcome. It should be possible to laugh at most of it eventually. Might take a while though. Todays troubles are tomorrows source of humour. I stopped worrying about people not caring about my troubles when I realised I wasnt particularly interested in theirs either. That seemed fair to me. I was having a low point last week and my two daughters asked if they could each have a bound copy of my thesis with gold lettering on the spine. They wanted to use it as a family heirloom to hand onto their own children. They are 15 and 19 years old. I wont lie. I had to leave the room or I would have dissolved into a soggy mess right in front of them.

Lost
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Quote From TreeofLife:
Quote From pm133:
I reckon that in the UK we only graduate about 1000 PhD students per year.


I reckon it's more like 15-20k but I get your point.

Is it really as much as that? I genuinely had no idea.

Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc
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Quote From Solo:
Quote From pm133:
Quote From pm133:
[quote]*SNIP.


I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move.

Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water.

As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me.
Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.


Given my failure so far to get a job in the field when I HAVE all the skills necessary, I don't feel it's a good idea to apply to every job in the world.


Leaving aside the bit about applying for every job in the world because nobody is suggesting that, your logic is flawed here. Getting a job is largely a numbers and probability game. Just because you cant get jobs where you have 100% of the skills doesnt necessarily mean you cant get jobs where you only have 40% of the skills. It just doesnt work like that. You may find an employer who will be happy to hire someone cheaper and be prepared to train you.This is very common.

Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc
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Quote From AOE26:
As an employer (with 2 positions currently open) there are a few criteria people must meet. They MUST have the essential skills I list. If it is a technical role then that is simple, more senior roles where they are soft skills then they are harder to judge. Your cv must be near perfect in terms of grammar/formatting etc It's your advert, if you cannot spend a significant amount of time honing it you lack the attention to detail I require. That is to get to interview stage.

OP probably has these boxes ticked as they are getting to interview stage.

What do I look for then? Again, if it's a technical role you will probably get a technical test/grilling from one of my colleagues. Pass that you will then get to see me. I am a huge believer in 'hire the attitude - train the skill' (with a caveat of you probably have the skill as you passed the test :) ) So I want enthusiasm/passion for what you do and want to do - without being desperate. It's near impossible to give people enthusiasm - you need to bring that one! I want to see your personality in an interview, I need to know how you will fit in the team. It does neither of us any good if you ace the interview being someone you are not.. you won't make it through your probation and it will be a waste of everyone's time - so be genuine.

Not every job needs someone with a mountain of ambition. Why? Each time someone out shines me and moves on to better things I have recruit again!!! Ok that is a bit tongue in cheek.. but you get the idea.

I only have 55 words left so I'll wrap it up by saying - match the skills, have the right attitude, be genuine and have a wash and clean your shoes before the interview.

Good luck!

Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed.
Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills?
How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?

Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc
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Quote From pm133:
*SNIP.


1.) The feedback I get from interviews is positive and well prepared I was. I'm looking for interview training/info at the moment aswell.

2.) And I guess I do sound a bit desperate, but after 2 years of unemployment I guess that's understandable.
3.) As for ambition: I guess we have different definitions of ambition, what I mean is: I'm not overreaching on my job applications, I only target jobs I can do.



I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move.

Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water.

As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me.
Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.

Lost
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Quote From aysegul:
How are you guys? I think I feel a little bit lost and alone and tired.I am so close to the end but however, it feels like it will never end. I don't know why things just not getting alright. I have problems in every single step. There is not even one easy step existing.


Pretty much sounds like the experience of every PhD student I have ever met, including my own.
Everyday brings a list of things to do and in most occasions there isn't a single simple thing on the list. Some examples:

1) Quickly print a page. Printer out of paper. Replace paper easily enough. Press print. It's also out of toner. Organise toner. Colleagues emptied both and simply could not be arsed fixing it themselves. Don't even get me started on staplers without staples. Takes an hour to get supervisor in to authorise the purchase. Computer people out to lunch. Come back an hour later. Toner replaced. Excellent! But students are on campus so internet is a bit dodgy. Printer not contactable. At this point I am blowing steam out of my ears.

2) Send in timesheet to get paid for tutorials. Easy enough but Finance department have removed the common sheet we used to fill in and replaced it with a month specific sheet for some reason. They emailed me it ages ago and I deleted it. Now I have to trawl my trash folder but I can't find it. Emailed my colleagues and finally get a copy of it but the form requires things called Business codes, department codes, job IDs, course IDs and I don't know what they are. Three trips made to department office to find these numbers from the secretary. She doesn't have them. No idea who does have them. Three hours later I finally get them from someone prepared to admit they know them. Go to submit form and they ask for my employee number. Finance won't gve me it without proof of my ID which I don't have on me that day. The employee number is on a payslip from a year ago and I don't have it with me. Have to do it the following day now.

You have to laugh at this stuff or you will cry.

This PhD is the single hardest thing I have ever undertaken in my life and that is coming from someone who has brought three children up to adulthood. Nobody but nobody gives a shit whether you make it and your family and friends have no idea what you are going through. You are on your own. On the positive side, I remember that only a handful of people get PhDs in the first place so obtaining one automatically puts you in an elite class academically. You've made it to the top academic education rung our society has to offer. I reckon that in the UK we only graduate about 1000 PhD students per year. The workplace contains people between the ages of around 25 and 65 which means there is 40 years of people with PhDs out there in the UK workplace or about 40,000 people who have achieved the same academic qualification out of a current UK workforce of about 30 million people. Remembering that helps me sleep at night :-D

Any advice for a new start PhD?
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Quote From SimonaDe:
Science is one of such activities, to which you have to force yourself. As the French say, appetite comes with eating.


You are joking right?

Balancing Work, Studies, Family Life, and Enough Sleep
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Quote From Bah:
I am a first-year doctoral student who works at an elementary school six hours a day and I also have two children. Sometimes I have to sit the whole night studying for a due paper or post. I need some advice as to how to balance life with work and school, and also receive enough sleep?
I'll be thankful.


There are no easy answers to this.
There are only so many hours in the day.
Finding balance is about understanding you cant have it all when you have so many things you want to be good at.
Priorities have to be set and sacrifices have to be made.
For me, I put work first and family second. Fortunately I have a spouse who wanted the exact opposite. Without her, there would have been serious problems. I didnt neglect my family but I sacrificed the things I wasnt remotely interested in like helping with homework, going to school events, reading stories (UGH!) etc. Instead, we all went and spent the entire weekend doing things together and had cake, tea and film nights during the week. I discovered I had a great talent for putting on sock puppet and shadow puppets shows. Turns out that kids need their parents a lot less than we believe.

Experiments for thesis
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Quote From ZaoRazor:
Hi everyone,

A couple of weeks ago I got the reviews for my first paper. The editor has asked for a replication which, essentially, means that I will be spending half of my 2nd year running the same experiment I run last year. Since it will be an exact replication of my first experiment it won't be adding anything new to my thesis.

I had another experiment ready to go but it will be pushed back as a result of the editor's decision.

I'm scared that I won't have enough experiments to write up a thesis in 1,5 years from now and I'm starting to panic. I was wondering how many chapters/experiments should be included in a thesis? I understand that this is a very subject-specific question and that there aren't any hard-and-fast rules when it comes to thesis contents..

I'm a bit overwhelmed and, quite frankly, scared that I won't finish in 3 years. My funding runs out at the end of my 3rd year and I can't afford sticking around for a fourth year :(

Best,

ZR

You have a paper written up already. By any standard you are doing well.
I think it is way too early to be panicking about your thesis.
It is highly likely that you will be faster with the repeat as you are more competent now.
As for the thesis, I would say that 2 to 3 papers is a good PhD. Some have more than that but huge numbers of students end up with just one. Plenty end up with zero. All of them usually end up passing.
Talk to your supervisor and ask him to be blunt with you about all this.

Possible to finish in 3 years?
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Quote From teegs90:
Quote From pm133:

What you are calling luck, I call opportunities.
Opportunities occur literally all the time. Most people miss them.
The key is to be open to opportunities, to have the eye to spot them, the background to exploit them and the courage to try things. Most of this is under my control.


I certainly agree with the adage that "the harder you work, the luckier you get" but there are still a whooooole heap of things that can happen out of your control in a PhD outside of hard work/opportunity. I have a weird curse of my supervisors falling pregnant.... so three of my four supervisors in my honours/doctorate have gone on mat leave very close to me submitting! Yes, I am entitled to get alternate supervision but ultimately this is not the same as supervisors who know the work and has held me up. I also ended up in hospital having cancer treatment during my first semester, which set me back as you can imagine. There are SO many other examples I can think of among friends, which have nothing to do with the attitude or efforts of the student.

Not saying these challenges are insurmountable, and of course a resourceful and resilient student can do a lot to bounce back from these challenges. But sometimes things happen that are out of your control and its going to delay your candidature. That doesn't mean you are a bad student or have a bad attitude. It is not the end of the world to take longer than 3 years and certainly doesn't make you a failure.

Anyway, it's really awesome that everything you have encountered has been a matter of hard work and harnessing opportunities, and that you plan to make sure you submit on your terms regardless of what your supervisor wants, but not everyone is in the same boat as you.


In fairness I was assuming everyone would realise I was not talking about things like pregnancy and cancer.

Possible to finish in 3 years?
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Quote From TreeofLife:
Quote From pm133:


What you are calling luck, I call opportunities.
Opportunities occur literally all the time. Most people miss them.
The key is to be open to opportunities, to have the eye to spot them, the background to exploit them and the courage to try things. Most of this is under my control.
You are of course perfectly entitled to call this luck but like I said, everything I have ever achieved has been largely down to my efforts. To suggest it is simply nothing more than pure random luck which anyone else could have succeeded in exploiting is not something I agree with.

I will take one example from your post. Not Knowing the right person.
If you know your field you already know who the right people are.
So make contact with them or find someone who can do this for you.
There is no excuse for not at least trying to do this, failing to land a job with them and subsequently blaming "bad luck" because it is nothing of the sort. It is bad preparation.
Am I persuading you?


So we are talking about similar things, I guess the differences is just the way we view them: Luck or Opportunity. I guess for me, I view good things happening to me as good luck, because I believe it could just as easily happened to the next person, who has worked just as hard as me or has a similar publication record and so forth. On the other hand, if something doesn't work out for me, I don't view it as bad luck, rather that I didn't work hard enough or network enough or whatever - and then I can work to rectify the problem. Maybe that's odd, but it works for me.


Yeah I think we are talking about similar things. I don't like having a mindset which treats good things happening to me as luck because it promotes Imposter Syndrome. Yes some luck is involved but over a period of time, the good things which happen to me can't all be just luck. When I sit back and think about it honestly, most of it has been down to my own actions. Critical evaluation is extremely important to me and that doesn't just mean having a go at myself for things I did wrong (although I am a strong believer in doing exactly as you do). It also means taking the time to appreciate that I've done well in tasks. In my opinion it is vital that you have the ability to evaluate your self positively as well. That's a hard for British people because we are hamstrung by a poisonous culture which says it is somehow unseemly to consider yourself to be good at certain things. We are wrongly taught that this is arrogance. No wonder so many struggle with Imposter Syndrome, a lack of belief in our own abilities, a fear of failure and a subsequent lack of ambition. As a nation we are being left behind by more confident nations.
Blimey I am glad I got that off my chest :-D

Anyway I think you have to find a method which works for you.

Possible to finish in 3 years?
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Quote From chickpea:
Agreed, teegs - there are many people who are just as hard-working and capable as anyone else, but who don't experience things in that linear 'work>result' way. I don't think anyone working through a PhD is a failure and I would like to see us give each other a break.


I don't think a single poster on this thread talked about anyone being a failure so I'm not sure where you are coming from here.

Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc
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Quote From Solo:
Further to the linked post. I've been trying to get a job in science for 18 months. I have about 18 months/2 years experience and Msc in Genetics. I've had over 20 interviews, I've not gotten a job offer. I'm currently doing voluntary research at the local university to boost my CV. The feedback I usually receive is "You were good, there was someone better." I don't know if they're fobbing me off. The custom feedback I get sometimes is far more complimentary and definitely makes me feel better.

I'm looking for information on how to best apply for industry jobs. I'm good at academic applications, but I rarely get ANY reply from industry. rejection or no. I can't find any contact details to get feedback, nor do I know many people in industry to get information on what I'm doing wrong.

I'm not that ambitious, I just want an entry level lab job in genetics that I feel I'm qualified for. A PhD student recently explained that almost EVERY job in industry or academia requires a PhD now, whether entry level or otherwise. I was passed over for a job a few months ago for a completely fresh undergraduate [not from the same uni, she applied just like me]. I really don't want to do a PhD JUST to get an entry level job, I feel forced into it and a PhD is tough enough without hating every second.

Frankly I'm getting disillusioned. I've spent 2 years doing everything I possibly can, and feel I haven't moved forward. Anyone who has experience of industry, can they please help with advice on applications, job requirements, or even places to apply? I know about the major companions [Pfizer, Roche, GSK, Astro, Isogenica] and I check Newscientist etc for other jobs.

Sorry for rambling, but help would be appreciated.


I think you are asking for the wrong type of help.
If you have had 20 interviews then clearly the problem isn't your CV.
I would suggest that it's probably your performance at interview which is the issue because if you've been invited along then your lack of a PhD has already been made irrelevant. Now it's all about how you perform on the day.
You need someone to help you assess how you come across in front of an employer.
I don't know who you are and can only go by your post above but you sound desperate for any old job. It is very likely that an experienced recruiter will smell this a mile away and make the decision that you are not interested in what their company gets out of hiring you but more about what you get out of being hired.
You also mentioned not being ambitious. Again that could come across in an interview as a very unattractive quality in a candidate.
Only you will know if I am in the right ballpark here but hopefully I've given you something to think about.