I do think that it is the system that is messed up rather than the actual profession. For someone to suffer in the way that Wally describes IF he was treating his girls well and taking care of them is quite awful. I don't really class myself as a total liberal, but I do have something of a live and let live attitude to life. I don't like disrespect, I don't like violence, I certainly don't agree with people hurting others, however, if a woman chooses to make money out of this and if, like BdJ she is taken care of and treated with respect then why not? Its not something I could do - for a start hubby would hate it lol, but for me personally I do equate sex with love and can't imagine doing that with someone I didn't know and then get given some cash for it.

The figures stated for those in academia relying on prostitution to fund the degrees and post doc is quite alarming. It does say an awful lot about the state of education at the moment. I personally knew a couple of girls when doing my BA who were topping up their student loan in this way - but 30+%?

Don't start again Clever Clogs :-p they weren't 'personal attacks', I simply say things as I see them and although I'm sure you're a lovely person you were coming across as rather biggotted - I didn't say you WERE, just that that is how you were portraying yourself. I love a good debate as much as the next person. And I am actually rather nice :-) and prefer not to 'attack' anyone - yourself included :-x

I can't see that it got out of hand - a bit heated maybe, but to delete it is surely rather extreme! Debates go that way - people discuss, maybe even get annoyed, but then the debate completes and we're all friends again - are we not allowed to have differing opinions?

Clever Clogs, if you wish to engage in debate, then I'd suggest that you do just that and stop the flippant remarks on each post - you really do come across as rather immature and ignorant. You have only recently joined us, I'd suggest that rather than insulting established members of the community and making silly comments you engage with us and debate properly.

We are all intelligent, deep thinking people, and enjoy a good debate that doesn't become personal - however there is little that annoys certainly myself, and I know several others here - than people who come on and simply say 'yeh but, no but'.

You are not 'winning' - debates aren't 'won', they are engaged in and well all learn from them. Please can you enlighten us further with reasoned debate and less of the flippancy, rudeness and ignorance. As a spiritually educated person I'm certain that you can manage that?

I too am rather worried that Clever Clogs doesn't answer questions and doesn't get into the debate beyond continually spouting 'spiritual education' lines. I don't like the concept of prostitution, but I accept that it has been around forever, will be around forever, and has very little to do with the perceived degradation of society. Being a historian studying just this kind of topic I can see that in truth our world now is significantly LESS degraded than it has ever been, thus I find the argument confusing and lacking direction.

I also consider, when thinking of BdJ herself, that she, being a high-class hooker, didn't street walk, didn't do drugs, wasn't beaten, didn't cause nuisance of any kind, didn't solicit, I don't have a problem with what she did in the slightest, she provided a business service and I'd argue the men were mugs who paid a fortune for a quickie!

I quite agree with you Poppy. I'm very lucky in that my husband works shifts and he actually saw a lot more of Olivia than I did when she was little - I was studying, if he was off duty he took full parental control and did the toddler group thing, the feeding the ducks etc, all the things that 9-5 dads can't do so much. My first husband (my elder two - 10 year age gap - are from a previous marriage) used to leave for work at 6.30am ie before they got up, and get home at gone 7pm ie after they went to bed - he saw them at weekends! It wasn't his fault though and for men to have an option would be great. Having said all that, one of the big problems us girls face is employability - when we are young - ie childbearing age - then employers do discriminate - its a fact - and understandably so - my sister-in-law's firm found themselves faced with 7 out of their 10 staff all going on maternity leave within 6 months of each other - ok, so that is extreme, but 5 out of those 7, including sister-in-law have decided not to go back - the firm is in chaos. If men too had that option then it could (talking practically here) cause employers tremendous difficulties. The huge multi-nationals would cope, but your small employers with only a few staff... well!

It is having it all at the same time that is a problem, but say you don't really enter a career until you're mid twenties, then have a family in your late 20s early 30s, by the time that you can realistically hold down both a f/t career and also have been there for your kids you're pushing your 40s (like me) and then its difficult. I was a teenager in the early 80s and was told the opposite of what this report was saying - you CAN have it all, you can be a power suited (complete with shoulder pads) hard balled business woman and have a shiny brood of kids, flash house, cook tea, etc etc etc - what they never explained was quite how that was going to pan out. Maybe in a way I was lucky that I saw the reality of it with mum and didn't expect too much. That's not to say that I was resigned to spending my life at the stove, complete with apron and maybe a nice little shop job two mornings a week - heck, I'm doing this now aren't I gearing up for a later life career. But what I did feel, and still do, was that burnout isn't pretty, for the children its not great, and that life is quite long (for most of us) and I was happy to be a housewife with a few p/t jobs to keep me amused while the children were little. The problem came in when my marriage broke down and I wasn't qualified for a decent job - being a woman, even in these enlightened times, is difficult. You're pulled in so many ways.

But yes, if there was a way that men could be offered p/t work if they chose it, and that family and working life could be shared better, then maybe we could all have it all? Either that or find a husband on shift work - that helps lol. But then there's not the mega bucks... and life is harder as you're constantly searching under the bed for money for food.... there MUST be a good middle way and its my hope that the next big move in gender relations will provide a more equal balancing act.

Lol Wally, you dance away :-)

Well I finished another section of my work today, went up to campus to get some books from the library, did the bedtime routine with the kids and now I'm sat here having read again the BdJ thread (firey!!) and have decided to get a nice cup of hot chocolate with kahlua in it (delicious - just heaven - you must try it) and go to bed rather than starting writing again - tbh I'm just too tired to carry on lol - I'll be better with a night's sleep and come to it fresh :-)

Hi again, I'm quite relieved not to seem to have angered anywone with my earlier comments, this, as you can tell, is something that I feel quite strongly about, and I do want to stress (having done gender studies in my History and Sociology BA) that now I feel rather different to how I did as a child, however I guess the over-riding fear of the results of trying to 'have it all' and failing have in many ways influenced my choices. Java, like you I have 3 children, and I too work when they are at school as much as possible and try to be here for them. I can also see as has been pointed out that true equality is nowhere close and that the 'equality' of women was to fit into a man's world, whilst still being responsible for 'women's work' - triple shift anyone?? I think that is why my mum suffered so terribly - f/t 8-6, 6 day a week job and f/t housekeeper and parent who, although my dad is wonderful and did all he could, far more than any of my friend's parents, felt that it was 'her' job! Heck, she'd even come home in her lunch hour - 7 miles - to wash the floors! But she was expected to act as a man, no flexi hours, be aggressive in the workplace, not take time off for the children etc - nightmare.

True equality would mean that both men and women had equal opportunities in all respects, and that the high flying jobs would be p/t in some instances (among a myriad of other conditions). I too choose to put my family first for now - they grow so fast - my eldest is 16 and will go to uni soon, they will still need me of course, but not in the same way. But then we get into ageism don't we, and the fact that when you are heading towards retirement (not that I am for a while yet lol lol) it is VERY hard to get into any type of career. I also feel quite angered at the way that women are judged. If you are a working wife or mother then you are some kind of hard-nosed bitch who abandons her kids and family, but if you are a housewife you are a lazy toad who can't be bothered to get off her backside and contribute to society.

Sometimes I feel that us girls are b******d if we do and b*******d if we don't..... some equality - and until that is sorted out then we simply can't have it all and stay sane and healthy.

Good grief - I only went off for a few hours to work and come back to this!!!!

Cleverclogs (and oh aren't you just) you are a biologist, not a social or political scientist, or you may have seen the errors in your arguments. You come across as a bigotted, high brow, morally 'superior' (and I don't mean that in a good way) sort of person. The paper you quote is a standard mishmash figures, statistics can show what you please document and does not relate in any way to the reality for a large number of sex workers. I personally do believe that to a certain extent prostitution should be legalised and the girls better protected. Prostitution has been about for as long as men have wanted women and the moral degradation you so fear does not appear to be causing too many issues. Indeed, prostitution is nowhere near as rampant now as it was in the past, so hopefully you won't have to worry too much.

I'm very much an each to their own sort of person. I personally would not choose to follow that path, however, if another woman feels that that is a means to end for herself then provided she is protected good luck to her and she should not be submitted to a 17th century style witch hunt!

Wow - no corrections?? That is amazing, massive, massive congratulations Dr Heifer (up)

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I certainly didn't find it odd. I was the daughter of a 'have it all' type mother. Unfortunately my mum was a woman in her 30s in the 80s where things had changed and she had the double whammy of having been brought up to keep a perfect house, but she felt the need to juggle that with a high flying career. I so clearly remember her tiredness and her stress. I also remember it culminating in her being found with the hosepipe attached to tje exhaust.... She was ok, (although my guilt at maybe having driven her to it by not helping out enough, or being naughty or whatever still affects me) she was forced out of work by her doctor for 3 months on the grounds that her (few) varicous veins needed sorting NOW, and then she went back. When she hit 50 she was laid off. All I wanted was a mum who was at home when I got back from school, a mum who'd nurse me when I was sick rather than having to leave me with the phone... but try not to call darling. I guess in a way it put me off the 'have it all' school of thought big time and I grew up resenting the feminists and equal opportunities brigade who I felt had robbed me of my childhood and a happy mum.



As a mum myself I still feel that we simply can't have it all and keep our sanity. How can I possibly give 100% to my kids and to my work? I can't. Of course I still have to juggle with my studying and my kids, but while they are young this suits me far better than a career. I see friends who have children and who are working breaking their hearts leaving their children in child care. They put a brave face on it but it slips sometimes and they will admit they'd give anything to work p/t or not at all and not to miss so much of their family growing.



I know that this will enrage the feminists - sorry about that - but I think that the drive for equality has destroyed the lives of countless women and that girls should be taught that its ok to not 'have it all'. That its actually ok to be a wife and mum if that's what they chose, or to be a working woman with a high flying career. Combine the two and you simply cannot have enough hours in the day or enough energy and something will give eventually.

Good grief!!! I get around £2000 a term! (and only for the terms, not for the summer). Ok, I'm not of a full research council scholarship but a uni one, but even so, I'd have been rather pleased with that salary as a first off. We all have to start somewhere. Admittedly I'd hope to earn more than that, but then if that is the kind of money being offered there (you don't state where 'there' is) then maybe you'll have to suck it up and go with it and hope to move up the incremental scale. I guess one thing is certain, if you don't start somewhere you won't then get the career. Oh, and incidentally, when you say minimum wage... here minimum wage is (I think) £5.80 an hour.

I too wondered about how her department would treat her now. The trouble is that academia is notoriously stuffy. So she went on the game for a bit! She made an awful lot of money (£300 an hour??????? omg!!!!) she completely her doctorate, she's presumably good at her job - good luck to her. As I said before, its certainly not a choice I'd want to make (but £300 an hour!!!!! shoes, handbags, printing paper, ink.....) but its a shame if it would negatively affect her career and the work she has put into getting where she is. We all know what its like to survive on bursaries and the like, some choose that path, others of us go slowly mad and develop a taste for baked beans ;-)

Oooh, thanks Eska, guess what I'm going to be doing later ;-)

Well, its work today again, I'm sitting here psyching myself up to click on word and open my paper - I soooo just want to sit and do something else - heck even the hoovering is looking appealing, but I've got to get it done, sooner its done the better. So will be back later for a coffee break :-)