Hello,

I just wondered if any PhDers out there (or those poised to start one) have any experience of negotiating hours with their employer (who is not particularly supportive of academic/ 'extracurricular' pursuits) in order to take on a p/t PhD.

I am in a position where I won't know about my grant application until June, but am unlikely (in my social science field) to obtain full funding anyway. Therefore, I will most likely have to make arrangements with my employer to relieve a bit of my very large workload. I'm thinking I could perhaps ask for an 0.8 or 4 day week without being completely sniggered at, but at risk of sounding uncommitted and 'too big for my boots' as one of the youngest people in the organisation.

I sound like a little 6 year old, I know, but the reason I am finding this hard is because in less than a month a significant portion of our organisation will likely be losing their jobs. My department is in a relatively sound position, compared to many others. So, I feel like ethically I need to inform them before the 'restructuring' in case they want to create some kind of job share or something with another colleague (though something tells me this would be too creative and flexible a solution! Also, mine is quite a specialist role so it wouldn't be an easy option by any means). This could backfire and leave me jobless and unable to start PhD (no savings, no other income etc).

How would you go about this? An informal scoping conversation with my line manager at the soonest possibility? Wait till after the chaos/ after the funding decision? How would you sell it as a positive thing, that doesn't smack of wavering dedication to my post?

Thanks for your help!
PP x

======= Date Modified 24 Apr 2011 12:11:44 =======

I'm going to be blunt as it's how I feel I can be the best help to you, having had reasonable experience on both the real world and academic sides of the fence. I see your bosses point of view. If you come up with the above, the likelihood is you'll find yourself well up the list to go in a few months time. At times like this, companies will look to keep on only the better, more committed staff and the above makes you appear anything but.

Will your PhD benefit your employer? That's the one possible argument you can use, however, if the two are unrelated then I'd think very long and hard about what is most important to you.

You either want the job (career) or the PhD. If you want the PhD, look at a fully funded, full time option so that at least you have an income.

Will your PhD benefit your employer? That's the one possible argument you can use, however, if the two are unrelated then I'd think very long and hard about what is most important to you.

You either want the job (career) or the PhD. If you want the PhD, look at a fully funded, full time option so that at least you have an income.
[/quote]

Hi Mackem,

Thanks so much for your reply - and the bluntness is exactly what I was hoping for, as I want to see it from all sides before making a move.

To clarify, I am applying for full funding, but I am being realistic about my likelihood of obtaining it in the current climate. My PhD is actually really relevant to my employer, and could be an asset to them under normal circumstances; however, as the cuts have a tendency to reorder priorities and the strategic reordering of staff and workloads etc, I doubt it will be seen as added value when it simultaneously comes with a request for reduced hours.

The truth is, given the problems many new PhDs are having securing post-docs and jobs, if I had the choice I would probably keep doing my job on a p/t basis anyway (even with full funding) as I do really care about the projects, my colleagues, and the success of the organisation BUT not to the exclusion of my dreams and ambitions. So, for me its not really as simple as either/ or work and PhD - especially as my proposed project has quite a significant practice-led element.

The other option is that I make a clean break from this organisation rather than dilute my role there, to take on p/t work in another org (hopefully still related to my PhD field - but obviously there's not a great deal out there right now). It would seem to be preferable to have the weighting of work/ PhD clear to an organisation from the outset, so that they know what they're getting - so maybe this is fairer. In the same breath, I should also point out I was part-way through my p/t MA when I started at the current post, so they know that I still work at full force even when studying - and my dissertation has continued to benefit them and attract attention to the project with which it fitted.

So, its not too straight-forward really, but I'm taking from your post that I should be transparent and give them due notice about the fact I was investigating the possibility and have had a project accepted by a supervisor, which I intend to start in the autumn and really see it as a benefit to the org - etc etc. Argh - not sure!

Any more thoughts MB, or anyone else? There may be a virtual easter egg in it for you!(gift)

PP xx

It really depends on the relationship you have with your line manager. Could you have an informal hypothetical chat with them about the situation without it becoming public knowledge or being used against you? I think that's got to be the best way to go. Does anyone know you are interested in a PhD? Have others done it? Might your employer consider funding/supporting you?

I wouldn't do anything til your funding is confirmed personally because you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot.

I gave up my job to do my PhD and I think it was a good decision to make. I have funding with a small stipend but as I live at home it is enough. One of my colleagues had gone part time to do a PhD and it took him 5 years rather than 3. I had a few lengthy discussions with him, and my immediate line manager (who encouraged me throughout) who both thought I would get more out of the experience full time.

Of course it would have been a fall back for my at the end of my PhD to have a job on the side but I want to move into academia anyway. Is this your plan? Or do you want to still work in your current job when you finish?

This is more a series of questions than a useful answer but hopefully things to consider that might help your decision.

PrettyPolicy,

I understand you want to keep the security of remaining in some sort of position whilst you your PhD so that you still have the job before, during and after regardless of whether you finish the PhD, you succeed or fail.

However, you are looking at a fully funded position and that implies the PhD is in itself full time.

Let me spell out you you what kind of committment you may be facing with your PhD. Whilst my PhD did not start out too badly as regards time, it soon developed into 10 hours six days a week as literature review progressed into main research phase. As write-up progressed, I found myself pushing 12 to 16 hour days 6 to 7 days a week (days off were a rarity) for a period of two years (I overran by a year, normal for PhD candidates). This intensity continued between submission and viva as I crammed for viva.

Others will tell you different things based on their own experiences and yes, there are one or two who managed to finish inside the three years. However, one thing many will probably agree with me on is the intensity of work you could face is not appreciated until it is upon you and you wonder where your time has gone.

I don't see how you can remain committed to both your employer (at 80%) and your PhD (100% at a guess?). Even if the PhD is part-time, you're facing quite a juggling act with your time planning and I don;t know if I could have fully focussed on either if trying to do both.

If doing your job is supplementing doing your PhD (i.e. there is clear information transfer and relevance between the two), that will probably reduce your workload as you may be doing one as you are doing the other. However, if this is not completely the case, I suggest you examine what is more important to you.

If remaining in employment is paramount in what are difficult circumstances at the moment for most, I'd be tempted to delay until the job market improves. Also important is what you want to do afterwards. Do you see yourself in academia or in the real world (possibly with your current or similar organisation)? If you want to go into academia, I'd be tempted to jump ship. If not, then this means the PhD is a personal challenge and you have to ask if you want to risk your career for this challenge.

You seem to want both (keep job whilst doing PhD) and I personally think that's a tough ask.

Ian (alias Beefy)

Hi Prettypollicy

As you seem uncertain I would do nothing for now.

Wait the month until the restructuring is over, I agree with Beefy any hint of a jumper and you'll be pushed. 

With no savings and no other income and, I suspect, the fully funding route being a fierce battle I would find an alternative source of income before doing anything.

PhD part time is a challenge but, again agreeing with Beefy,  it depends why you are doing it.   However, you need to be aware that you will not, i repeat not, be able to think of anything else for the whole time. It will become your world so choose your workplace role carefully.. one where you don't have to think (and pays enough to live) would be preferable :-)

All the best. Chuff 

Thanks for your response, and sharing your experience with this - Ian/ Beefy and Chuff, too!

To answer various questions:

I have a pretty good relationship with my line manager, but that's largely because she sees me as a very reliable individual. That foundation could be quite shaken by my revelation, as I don't know that she particularly sees it coming (although she's noted before that I seem to be most motivated by research tasks so think she'd understand why I would make such a choice, to some extent). I've spoken confidentially to a couple of friends/ colleagues whom I trust, one of whom has just informed her manager of some freelance work she'll be doing on the side in a different field (so some parallels). That person was supportive, so on that basis the colleague advised transparency. The other one probably has less experience in this arena, but nonetheless felt that I was valued enough by the line manager to have some room for negotiating (I'm not sure its as simple as this for obvious reasons....)

In terms of the wavering commitment and indecision that I am giving off: I wholeheartedly want a career that I couldn't have in the same way/ as 'quickly' (!) without a PhD. I've shared this with my main sup and she said as much, too. I see myself publishing and presenting work, doing some consultancy in my field and some lecturing/ industry training. I gain satisfaction from having a number of things/ projects on the go at any given time... However, I don't want to downplay the personal passion. I would do it anyway, probably even if I was told I would never get this exact career ideal. I'd make it work for me, I hope.

I definitely would want to have moved on from my current post during/ following my PhD, but I am also aware that its not going to be easy to find another source of income during my studies, that is also enhancing my profile for said career vision. I suppose its my fear and insecurity of not finding a part time job to see me through my studies that's as rewarding and important to my future role. I suppose I was hoping my strategy would alleviate the common problem of having to be grossly overqualified for the post-phd job, if there are no academic posts available when I complete. However, I've had a reality check from the contributions here, and perhaps I have to accept a demotion to see me through financially. I did that during my BA, too - data entry, coffee shops etc, even though I officially wasn't allowed to work - but its painful to go back to those sorts of roles after investing so much in my work in the last 5+ years.

Chuff, I do take your point that as a means to an end, maybe its the best way to see keep my head 100% focussed on PhD while earning...Realistically, I know a 4 day week won't make much difference, as it will probably take me 1-2 days to clear my head from work, leaving only 1 day for P-T PhD....

Beefy - I did 16 or so hour days for 2 years while balancing this job with MA, but I know I couldn't have gone on for 4-5 like that. So, its good to be reminded of that reality. I thought of doing it for the first 1-2 years, while saving and then stopping work or reapplying for research council grants, as my institution has a multi-modal procedure where you can apply to switch from part- to full-time or visa versa

Sorry for adding such a long post: it actually cut me off!

I just wanted to thank everybody for helping. As suggested, I think I need to maybe take some time to clear my head once the stress of getting my grant application in next week has subsided, and the organisation may be a little further along its restructuring plans. I suppose it won't greatly help my line manager to tell her before this, and it definitely won't help me.

I might as well just wait to bring it up when I know about the funding, I suppose. Unfortunately, it won't make me popular if (IF) I walk out with a research studentship when others are losing their jobs, but I will have to remind myself its not my fault and I would be wanting to start the PhD with or without these circumstances...

PrettyPolicy,

Again, I'll be blunt. You can't have it all and you have reached a crossroads. Which direction do you want to take?

I've also done Masters as well as PhD. As you've considered, the masters was a shorter intensive peak, a short scrap. A PhD is a full scale military campaign in comparison.

Ian (Mackem_Beefy)

Hello again,

Just posting an update for those that helped/ are following this thread. I took some time to stop flustering over my conflicted ideas, and to see if a decision would 'come to me' more easily that way. Me being me, of course I keep wanting to please everyone by amassing both PhD and work etc, but I'm come to the realisation that this attitude can't really go on if I'm going to actually do well at it. As you say, Ian (if I may?):

"You can't have it all and you have reached a crossroads. Which direction do you want to take?"

So, today my ESRC application went in with F/T mode selected. My supervisor said it all looked v strong :-) If I win funding I will quit my job, simple as, and focus on the PhD for which I am lucky enough have financial support.

If (when?) I don't get funding, I will be better prepared emotionally (because of the finite nature of a 'no') to make a decision about my job - also bearing in mind what part-time work is available to me, come June. In the meantime, I will see if I can perhaps find a non-threatening way to mention my interest in expanding my research journey to my boss, or even that I want to - in the near future- do a PhD and am considering options. If, given the job loss situation, the timing is bad for this, I will mention it as soon as possible after my DTC's decision. I suppose that's the best I can do for now...

I still maintain, if someone reading has experienced having this conversation with their boss, I'd love to know how you handled it and how it went.

PP :-)