Hi,

I'm in a sticky situation at the moment. I currently work as a research assistant and seeking to apply for a PhD. The thing is that the work I've done has been of great interest to me, and I would very much like to continue on in the same lab as my current supervisor's PhD student.

He's agreed to be one of my referees, but given that I'll have to go through the formal application process, would it be 'right' to include him as one of my references when applying to his project?

I'd appreciate any sort of advice! Thank you!

Um, no. That's not going to work, is it. You need another referee.

My PhD supervisor was a reference for my PhD application. It didn't seem to matter. It was appropriate as she was my most recent supervisor and could comment on my most recent performance.

Obviously she would write good stuff as she was supporting my application for funding to do the PhD with her as supervisor. No one batted an eyelid. Think it's the norm?

And as he has agreed he obviously thinks it's fine / the norm too.

Your PhD supervisor was your reference for your PhD application?

Ah right, for a funding application? Ok, that's maybe a bit different, because it's someone else reviewing the application.

I thought the OP was saying they are applying for a PhD by their supervisor, so effectively the supervisor is writing a reference that he will then himself read when considering the person's application. That doesn't make any sense.

I think there is a clause somewhere in the ESRC funding guide that your supervisor cannot be a referee in your funding application. Not sure about the AHRC or other RC funded DTP/DTCs.

I don't think there would be a problem for your supervisor acting as a referee in a PhD application though. My friend who is applying for a self-funded PhD place has his supervisor (who was also his Master's dissertation supervisor, and his PhD project is an extension of his dissertation ) as a referee, and the application went through OK.

Not sure about other institutions, but as far as I can make out, as long as there is a supervisor willing to take the student on, and the student meets the entry requirements, a PhD place is more or less certain to be offered.

Ok, maybe this varies by institution. Where I work, PhD applications go directly to the supervisor. I know for sure that supervisors will not sit there and write a reference out for the sake of it. So, either no reference is required because the supervisor just goes on his/her opinion, or another independent reference is required. I imagine its the latter because there is still some sort of process to follow when taking on students, even if just to satisfy faculty requirements, so it would be hard to justify taking on a student if there's no reference at all.

If it was the case that students apply to the department for a PhD, then I can see that a supervisor could write a reference for their own student/employee, because it's not them reviewing the initial applications.

I see this as the same thing as if I was applying to a postdoc my PhD supervisor advertised - I wouldn't ask them for a reference, I'd go to someone else. They already know me and know what they think about me, so why would they be the one to write a reference? What would be the point?

Thanks everyone for their advice! To be more precise, it's a PhD biosciences studentship that i am applying for, and the projects listed includes one being offered by my current supervisor.

I'll need to fill up a list of supervisors I am interested in, which needless to say will include my current supervisor. Since now I know I'm applying to a department rather than directly to my supervisor, I'm guessing that he probably won't be reviewing the initial applications anyway so I'll just include him then!

You just need to ask them whether to include them as a referee,. You should always ask your referees first anyway, unless you get their permission to put them down as a reference for whatever you are applying for.

Mine was ESRC funded and it didn't matter. In a way it probably makes it stronger (you have the strong support of the person you want to work with - hardly a bad thing). In real life (outside of academia) this kind of thing would likely go against protocol and be clearly stated somewhere. But this is academia, and academia (at present and for the foreseeable future) is a different world altogether. As long as you declare possible conflicts of interests (but not ones like this!) on papers and talks, you're sorted.

If he has agreed to be your referee then he obviously doesn't think it is a problem so you don't need to worry about it either.

Good luck with it all!!!

In real life it can vary as well. Sometimes it will be unavoidable because you work in an institution and system and are applying for a position within the same institution or system. Also at times selection and interview panels are convened after the position has been advertised and you can find that you agreed to act as a referee for a person and then you have been placed on the selection and/or interview panel.

My working experience has been that you just state your position re being one of the candidate's referee's at the outset before the selection or interview to the panel chair and the panel chair generally allows it.

The final decision is made by the panel rather than an individual so this acts against any bias or nepotism. Usually reference checking might include more than one referee and if you are on the panel and happen to be one of the referees listed for the candidate, other than the panel members asking you briefly about the candidate after the interview, someone goes on and contacts another referee on the list to check.

Oh yes, it can occur in "real life" too. I just mean in academia (at least in my experience of it so far) such things are just commonplace and standard procedures don't tend to be in place for dealing with them. Things seem far less regulated.

Yes, I would think so as well Arnoldtan.

Tudor, my post was not critical of your point so much as pointing out how this is dealt with in the institutions and systems I have worked in. It has been less of an issue than I initially would have thought when I first started helping out on interview panels (in the world of secondary Colleges and school systems) some years ago. The other thing I would add though, is that you can agree to be a referee and not expect to be on a panel, and then be asked afterwards when someone else has pulled out for some reason. However, it has not been an issue even then.

Best of luck with your application and the process A.

Yes, good luck Arnoldtan!

I didn't take it as critical Pjlu - no worries : ) I have a bit of a thing going on at the moment where I'm realising how out of touch academia can be. This thread just brought it all to mind again so I wanted to make a point about it! Hope all is going well.

Tudor