Hello all,

i tried to find answers to my questions by searching the internet and this forum, but somehow i don't have much luck with the search engine here, so, sorry in case these questions are asked over 'n over again :S

i'm german, studying molecular life science in the netherlands, i'm in my last year (obtaining master of science degree in summer) and currently doing a research internship in melbourne. i'm planning on doing a PhD next, but i'm unsure yet where: either the netherlands, or the UK. i know how the system works in the NL (phd lasts 4 years in which you do both your research, write your thesis and publish meanwhile, and you get paid 2000E/month in the first year by the department you work with, 2500E in your 4th year), but i have no clue about the UK. i'd really like to do the phd in the UK, but i need some general information about it first. that's why i'd like to ask a couple of questions:

- so far i figured out that it lasts 3 years. does that include writing the thesis and publishing, or are the 3 years purely practical work?
- what is the pay for starters? i've been searching this point, and i'm starting to get the impression phds in the UK don't get paid by their institution but have to apply for funding themselves... if that's true, it's kinda scary :S but of course, i guess that's for native phds...? i'd like to do the phd full time, but i don't want to live of my parents anymore, i want to be independent. the dutch system offers that opportunity, and i sure hope the UK does somehow as well...
- does anyone of you know someone from non-UK EU who is doing the phd in the UK? i'd like to talk/hear about their impressions and experiences, i think that would be very very helpful...

i bet i'll come up with some more questions, but right now, these are the ones that bother me the most.
thanks in advance!

Greets,
tydra

======= Date Modified 14 Feb 2009 05:32:24 =======
Hi,

A standard PhD in the UK is three years. There is no 'pay', but rather a student receives funding from a research council, the university directly, a charity or the private sector. This funding is not automatic, but within the sciences there are lots of funding opportunities attached to specific projects that you may apply for directly. The funding varies, but it's generally around £9-14,000 a year depending on the source, and tuition fees are paid. The funding is generally a standard amount each year, and may go up in line with inflation, but does not usually involve increases like the Netherlands. The funding is non-taxable, so what you see is what you get.

Funding is provided for three years, and a candidate is expected to research and submit their thesis at the end of 3/4 years (the amount of publications produced during this time will depend on the candidate's discipline, department and motivation). Commonly, a PhD will go beyond three years, so there is an official 'write-up' year after the three years, when the candidate will write-up their work - this final year is usually not funded. Thus, a PhD (assuming there are no hiccups along the way) will take 3-4 years, but many people take much longer!

The Netherlands sounds a very rosy option! Is the Dutch PhD 'pay' subject to tax? If so, I imagine the net salary is actually lower than the standard funding in the UK.

Euro students I know who get funding have to pay extra fees on top of that. Funding only covers standard UK fees. And unless the Netherlands tax rate is 50%, 2000 euros/month is going to be alot more than UK funding, which is more like £1000/month (tax free).

Alice, non-UK EU students should be treated exactly the same as UK students when it comes to fees. If a EU students wins standard funding then they shouldn't be paying a top-up. This is generally speaking, of course.

The Dutch tax system is punishing. The first bracket is >33%, and it's easy to slope into the 40 and 50% rates. At a guess, a PhD student, assuming they 'pay' is taxable, will be subject to plus 30 and plus 40 tax rates on their income.

Alice, should I assumed that's sarcasm?;-)

As far as I'm aware, universities cannot charge EU students extra fees (this is EU law): for example, if both a UK and EU student receive a fully funded studentship from a university, the EU student cannot then be subject to extra fees (akin to an overseas student). If an EU student wins research council funding, the council has the right to not give the student maintenance money; however, they will still pay their tuition fees and this will be at the UK rate, and the student will not be subject to additional fees.

I'm no expert on European law. I'm just recounting what the EU students I know have to do. I don't know why, but I know they do pay extra fees. They get same bursary and fees covered as me, then they pay a top up.

Thanks for your replies and information so far!

the pay in NL is subject to taxing, it's seen as a "normal" salary, kind of. I don't know how big the percentage is starters have to pay though... i think it's at least 20%, but don't know how much.

do you have to search for the funding yourself? i've seen some descriptions of funds and they say they don't give the money to individuals, but rather to the organisation/your supervisor. so i assume, you first should try to get a job offer and then search for funding... correct? or do the institutions usually already have the funding they need for the phds, so you don't have to go apply yourself for funding? (guess that depends on the lab ....?)
if you apply for a job, could you expect the supervisor to help you figure these things out? but again, that might depend on the character of the super... argh, such a difficult matter lol

A lot of it depends on the dept/uni itself.

In science a lot of projects are specified with their own funding (eg. uni, research council, private, charity) so if you get the position you get the funding attached to it (tuition fees which are the same for UK/EU students and a tax-free studentship).  There are also examples where depts advertise a list of projects or sometimes you can submit your own into an open competition where funding is not guaranteed so say for eg. there are 2 fully funded studentships and 10 projects available the top 2 candidates will get awarded the funding and others may get offered a place but have to get their own funding.  You cannot apply to research councils for money directly as the money is given to specific depts for them to choose the student.  If in such examples you can talk with the supervisor to see what they suggest and as you say they are so variable but most will usually help and offer suggestions!

Good luck!

Hi tydra,
if things haven't changed recently, and as far as I am aware, the research councils' (RCs) studentships for EU (non-UK) people cover "fees only". So, even when a lab has an open, funded PhD position, you would only get the fees, whereas a UK applicant would get the fees plus the maintenance (ca. £1000/month, untaxed). So if you don't want to work a part-time job next to your PhD, and want to be financially independent, the RC studentships won't work for you.
Some studentships are funded from different bodies (for example, the Wellcome trust, or the specific university) and they may or may not be eligible for non-UK, EU students.

What strikes me, is how you keep referring to PhD positions as "jobs". I used to think like that too (I'm from Switzerland). Here in the UK, PhDers are not seen as staff, but rather as students; what we do is not seen as work, but rather as "studying". That attitude is obviously reflected in the fact that you get "studentships" (if anything at all), not wages; but it is also obvious in how you are treated: I never was treated so much like a student than I was when I started my PhD. Not even when I was an undergrad student back home. (Of course this depends a lot on your individual institution and supervisors etc.)

For example when you finish your PhD and can't immediately find a job. In UK terms, you will be looking for your "first" job. You will have no "work experience" and will have not "worked" (e.g. paid NI) before and thus you won't be eligible for unemployment payouts. And you won't have a single penny in pensions. So even if the money left after taxes and other deductions in Dutch PhD wages is not more than what you get on an UK studentship, you do get much more security and it is a whole different attitude.

So if you really want to do a PhD in the UK:
- Keep in mind that it's not just the money that's different, it's also a whole different approach.
- Make sure that you are eligible for the funding that goes with the projects you apply for. The professors etc. often don't know. You often have to dig out all the info for yourself. You'll have profs saying "of course you are eligible for this funding" but then it turns out you get "fees only"... or nothing at all... never trust what academics tell you on the subject, they are NOT experts in this.

All that said - I believe if the circumstances are right, it's great to do a PhD in the UK. Go for it!

Tydra, you can apply for funding in different ways. You can get a place and then look for funding, or look directly for an advertised funded position. Generally, the sciences have more funding, so I believe the most common way is to look at advertised funded places and apply directly. Your best chances of getting funding will be via studentship (as Shani says you won't get full funding for the leading research councils), or through the private sector.

dont do phd in uk. It is the bottom.

dont do phd in uk. It is the bottom.

======= Date Modified 16 Feb 2009 09:50:25 =======
Tydra, I am guessing you need to ignore this person below...they have a history of doing similar things on this forum...