======= Date Modified 12 06 2009 18:06:57 =======
Hi everyone,

I have a meeting with my supervisor on Wednesday where we are supposed to be discussing a chapter I've been working on forever. I was meant to send him something tonight so he has time to look over it by then. To cut a long story short it's not going to happen: I have nothing to say and despite months working on this I still have no idea where it's going. I really want to tell him this and suggest I just move on and try something else, but I know that's not going to go down well. I know I should probably send something, anything, and explain that I don't think it's ever going to work as a chapter, but two things: 1) it's not going to get done tonight and 2) I really, really can't face writing about this any more. I don't think it's been a waste of time as I've learnt a lot and I could use some of my findings elsewhere, but I'm really not sure what my supervisor would say to me cancelling the meeting. I expect it's a very bad move.
I feel very very low tonight and completely useless.

hi Keep_Calm

The problem I can see here is that your boss may not be prepared to accept your arguement that your chapter idea does not seem like a good one.

The key here is to have the meeting, but take time to explain why you don't think the idea is any good. In academia it should be the case that anything where there is sufficient evidence to justify an arguement, will make sense as an arguement. So, as long as you can say accurately why you think the idea is not a good one on the basis of the data that you have, your boss can either accept your arguements, or question the data that your arguements are based upon

It sounds to me like you could do with leaving this idea alone for a little while, ultimately I think you will need to be honest and tell your boss the problem. I appreciate supervisors can be pretty awful, but he should be prepared to accept that this is reasearch, and sometimes things don't go as you might have hoped. As long as your arguements are sound, you should be fine.

As far as tonight goes, I can't recommend much, just try to figure out why the stuff you are doing is not working, or what your ideas are to this extent, and send that to your boss?

Good luck

Hi Cakeman,

Thanks for taking the time to write that, it has helped. The problem is, I can't really explain why the argument won't work because I don't seem to have one! I've done three versions of this chapter now (he's seen them all) and each one seems to have followed a completely different argument. For various reasons, none of those have been very convincing. I have a very, very basic central argument which I could follow but I've pursued that argument in another chapter I've written with much more success already. I'd just be going over old ground and for a chapter which I've spent about 5 months on, old ground isn't really what he wants to see, I'm sure.
I just think I'd do better to go away and look at another text where I can find some solid and interesting bits to hang my argument on and actually advance it (I study Eng Lit). Sorry if this isn't making any sense!
I hope he will accept my reasons and not assume I just don't want to do the work. Part of me is thinking I could still cobble something together for appearances sake but I'm sick of handing in awful drafts.

I know I'm being selfish and needy tonight but if any peeps could give me some more words of comfort/advice I'd be most grateful. Feeling awful and nervous.

Hi Keep Calm,

I'm film studies, which is pretty similar in amny ways to literature and I think it sounds OK to pursue your central argument again (with other case studies?? is that right?) and explore differences and nuances in this other chapter's examples. Surely you have to pursue your central argument all the way through your thesis? That's what I'm doing, in my current plan each case study chapter will come to different conclusions about the significance of the core argument in relation too different material. Even if your findings overlap in different chapters, I think that's Ok.

I'm earlier on in the proces than you, just finishing up writing a blue print outline, so maybe I'm wrong! But I think even small differences in conclusions are worthwhile, and there will be differences in the contexts of the books you are looking at; or do you mean this chapter is literally repeating previous material?

Best,

Eska

Hi KC,

Well first off you're going to be fine! This is all part of the PhD learning curve and something many of us on here have faced, so you are not alone and you will come through the other side.

My advice would be not to cancel the meeting; you'll only postpone the current feelings. Facing your challenge head on is difficult but the best way to deal with it, and hopefully your supervisor will see that and recognise that you need some direction/support.

You said that you've already written another chapter (sorry, I can't remember how far through your PhD you are), which shows that you are able to complete a chapter and understand the process, which is a positive thing to hold onto. This helps me when I'm faced with enormous tasks. Looking back and seeing the things I've done gives me a bit of confidence to face the next bits.

Admitting to your supervisor that things aren't going well and you haven't managed to do what you had planned won't be easy or particularly pleasant, but could prove to be the solution you need. Perhaps you could email your supervisor and say that the work isn't done to a standard you are happy to submit but you'd like to keep the meeting and talk through the chapter/get his input/discuss the options. Then when you go to the meeting have some comments ready, for example... You said you have three variations of the chapter, and it sounds like you have a good reasoning of why these won't work, tell him what and why. Tell him what's been positive about what you've done so far (not all progress is purely about words on paper). Explain how else you might consider finishing the chapter (you said something about reading other texts) and what alterations this would mean to the original chapter outline. Explain how and why you might remove the chapter and use the information elsewhere - and why it would be better in that format rather than the original, and why that would be better to write.

Someone told me that it is important not to only take problems to supervisors, but also take solutions. This has been good advice! It's not about hiding from the problem, but instead of me going in and saying "I can't analyse my data" which tells my sv I've hit a snag and then stopped, I go in and say that the original stats I planned to use didn't work because of x, y, and z. I've looked at these stats alternatives, I spoken to this person, and I now have 2 options, but I'm not sure which one will work best and whether I've missed something else. What do you think?". It sounds like you already have all this information for your situation at your fingertips, you just need to get it into a bit of order for your meeting so you can explain it to your supervisor.

It may be that you're so far into your chapter that you can't see the big picture of it anymore which is stopping you move forwards. Talking it through might help clarifiy some of this.

You are clearly not useless; you've done 5 months of work on something and got various positive outputs, they just don't look quite how you'd like them to just yet (sounds just like the last 3.5 years of my life - my PhD!). You will get there. Maybe have a night off tonight, try to get some sleep and spend tomorrow making a plan for the meeting.

Good luck, stick in there


(up)

Hey keep calm

Don't be too down, it's not as if you've sat back and ignored the issue, your supervisor's already seen several drafts in evidence that you're trying to tackle the problem! How about putting together a brief summary (just a couple fo lines per draft) of what you've tried so far and why it fell down. The maybe a list of what you've learnt and where else you think you could use what you learnt from it. Admit that you're totally stuck and ask your supervisor's expert opinion, after all, if he/she can't guide you through this, why are they a supervisor? Ask what they would do in your shoes, do they have any contacts who know a lot about this, what do they think of your previous drafts and your approach? And maybe you do just need to leave it be for a little while, sometimes it is a good idea to focus elsewhere and come back to an issue with fresh insight, I do it in my labwork and it's amazing how your perspective shifts.

And remember, worst case scenario you have a supervisor who is temporarily not overjoyed with you - it's part of the process. Doing a PhD is hard and if you're genuinely struggling rather than being slack, then I'd hope that any decent academic team would support you.

Go ahead with the meeting and explain the problems you've had. Best to talk about these things up-front, and your supervisor should be able to give you advice on where to go next. If it was me I'd email my supervisor a short note to say the problems I've had, but say I want to have the meeting anyway to discuss how best to move forward.

It's not an unusual situation to be in during the PhD. The important thing is to face up to the problem and move forward effectively, with your supervisor's help.

Good luck!

Thanks so much everyone, your ideas really have helped.

I'm currently drafting an e-mail to my supervisor. Whilst trying to explain where things have gone wrong, however, I've had to explain what I was originally trying to do and am struggling to explain why it's been so hard to write! I think the ultimate difference is that with my last chapter I had a core few lines which I was working from and my whole argument was based around that. This time I started with a vague theory and I can't seem to get anything substantial from the text itself.

I am going to ask to see him anyway on Wednesday and we can talk about what I should do now and he can have a go at me if he likes! I want to put this in a drawer for now and move onto other things; we've already discussed some ideas for other chapters so I'd like to try some of those. If I end up coming back to this in the future then that's fine. I've only just gone into my second year and my supervisor once told me he didn't use anything he wrote in his first year so he should understand!

Cakegirl thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I love what you say about taking solutions not just problems. I guess it's easy to just say 'I can't do it, I give up' but actually taking the time to pin point what worked and what didn't is helping and will show him I'm not just being lazy.

To Eska, I see what you're saying and yeah, thats basically what I plan to do too. The difference is, I think I'm starting to realize, that in the last chapter I started with the text and built my argument around that, and this time I've started with my argument from the last chapter and tries to bend some texts to fit it and it hasn't worked.

Im still very scared about what he's going to say but I feel much calmer and like I have a plan of action now. Thank you everybody so much.

Hi Keep_Calm, I think it's quite easy to do that - I've been writing different versions of a thesis blue print, with chapter outlines, on and off, since May, and my sup keeps wringing it out and finding conceptual misfits (amongst other fautls!) which I then iron out. Hopefully - all my fingers and toes are crossed now, and I'm touching wood wherever I can - next time it'll be OK. Could you alter the central argument in terms of emphasis so that the whole thing is coherent; that's something I did recently, and my thesis makes loads more sense: it's the way I saw it being when I first started. I think sometimes you choose the right texts without really being conscious of why you've chosen them, but the reason is there.

Writing papers is soooo much easier than this! Good luck, it sounds as if you have a good grasp of the problems and have ideas about how to move forward.

Hi KC

All this advice is very sound! Just a quick thought from me - I think you might also be having trouble as you're using your previous chapter as a reference point and trying to make the current chapter fit around that. My sup has explained to me that I need to use the lit review as the reference point, then all the other chapters should flow from this, rather than writing a chapter and then using this as the central argument for all the other ones. Hope that makes sense.

And Eska, you're right. Obvious that a thesis needs to have a central argument, but I've just started actually thinking about what mine is and how it can be developed throughout the whole thing!

Good luck KC. You're not skiving off, so you'll be fine!

Thanks again guys,

I just fired off an email explaining what I've tried to do so far, where I think I've gone wrong and what I'd like to do next and suggesting that we still meet on Wednesday to talk things through. I've said that I would value his honest opinion and if he thinks it's just a case of me persevering with what I've got then Im willing to do it. I also apologised profusely for missing my deadline (grovelled 8-)) The e-mail was a thousand words long so hopefully he can see I've put some real thought into it!
Your advice was very interesting Eska, as was yours Sue, and I may take some time over the next few weeks to do a bit more reading and refine my central argument. I also haven't yet taken the time to write potential chapter outlines yet, so I think I should do that (also needs to be done for my 18 month review).
All I can say is thank god for this forum, I would still be in the depths of despair right now if I didn't have you guys. I say this every time I write a thread but it's true. In fact I'm going to tell a girl who's just started at my uni about this forum tomorrow- it's my number one tip!
I'll let you know what my sup replies; I'm nervous but I'm feeling prepared.

======= Date Modified 13 Oct 2009 00:02:08 =======
Keep_Calm, I think it's important to see what you are doing as a whole: I've been developing my core argument by building up from key concepts and films (or you could say texts) I knew I wanted to include; refining my argument by picking up and dropping case study film makers; and trying on different emphases as I've gone along. You have a basis, the argument from the first chapter, which needs too be built upon in order to frame the cases studies and concepts you want to look at; ask/answer the questions you want to; and to provide the foundations you want for your academic career. I've found thinking about it this way, and pulling all the elements which are important to me together, really useful.

P.s. I just read your last post - we must have been writing at the same time! That's great, I'm sure your meeting will go well, these things are just part of the process, part of you developing, so you'll only go forward now. I hope my words above weren't too abrupt, I'm just writing what coomes into my head, because it's so late. Good luck, I'm glad our advice helped. :-)

Hi Keep Calm, hope you're feeling better about all this today. All I have to add really is that I've spent the last few months working on something that I soon realized wouldn't work but I felt my supervisor wanted. I submitted a draft and she told me it pretty much didn't work, and I felt totally lost! Last week I met up with both supervisors to try and work it out with the result that everything has been totally changed round, my project focus has changed to where I want it and I even have a proper structure for what I'm trying to do. It made me realize that sometimes you have to trust your own feeling that something isn't heading in the right direction and have the courage to explain and justify it. Now I have an approach I can reject which helps to justify the one I'm taking, and although it feels like the summer was wasted I think it may have taken that to get me here. I hope that your supervisor supports what you want to do - remember that you know the project better than anyone. :-)

Hello,

Just wanted to quickly update. My supervisor has replied and was really nice about it all, said not to beat myself up and that there's plenty of time, either to salvage what I have or decide to let it go. He's given me some ideas for how I might 'fix' the chapter and we're going to talk about these tomorrow and decide what to do with it.
I should have known he wouldn't get angry, he's the nicest supervisor in the world and is always sympathetic. Thanks once again for all of your replies- Megara, I may yet decide to scrap it, and Ive had a similiar experience to you actually by just trying to work out whether I want to or not. It's made me try and confront why it isn't working at the moment rather than blindly soldier on and hope for the best.
Anyway I must be off; I'm teaching Paradise Lost in a couple of hours which is another massive hurdle to jump!

Thanks again x