Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc on PostgraduateForum.com

Solo
8 years ago

Further to the linked post. I've been trying to get a job in science for 18 months. I have about 18 months/2 years experience and Msc in Genetics. I've had over 20 interviews, I've not gotten a job offer. I'm currently doing voluntary research at the local university to boost my CV. The feedback I usually receive is "You were good, there was someone better." I don't know if they're fobbing me off. The custom feedback I get sometimes is far more complimentary and definitely makes me feel better.

I'm looking for information on how to best apply for industry jobs. I'm good at academic applications, but I rarely get ANY reply from industry. rejection or no. I can't find any contact details to get feedback, nor do I know many people in industry to get information on what I'm doing wrong.

I'm not that ambitious, I just want an entry level lab job in genetics that I feel I'm qualified for. A PhD student recently explained that almost EVERY job in industry or academia requires a PhD now, whether entry level or otherwise. I was passed over for a job a few months ago for a completely fresh undergraduate [not from the same uni, she applied just like me]. I really don't want to do a PhD JUST to get an entry level job, I feel forced into it and a PhD is tough enough without hating every second.

Frankly I'm getting disillusioned. I've spent 2 years doing everything I possibly can, and feel I haven't moved forward. Anyone who has experience of industry, can they please help with advice on applications, job requirements, or even places to apply? I know about the major companions [Pfizer, Roche, GSK, Astro, Isogenica] and I check Newscientist etc for other jobs.

Sorry for rambling, but help would be appreciated.

http://www.postgraduateforum.com/thread-47918

K

kikothedog
8 years ago

But a phd, if funded, will offer you more training, the chance to publish, improve your employability and keep the bills paid for a few years. PhDs are hard, but they can be very rewarding. It's worth considering.

H

HazyJane
8 years ago

If you don't want to do a PhD then don't, though acknowledge that it does close some doors and there might be a point in the future at which you will need to reconsider. But if your heart isn't in it at the moment then don't force it.

You may well have tried all of the following but I think they are worth suggesting anyway:

- get some advice from somewhere about how different an industry job application is from an academic job application

- join LinkedIn, create a decent profile and connect with anyone you know working in a science or tech field. Then look at their contact lists and see if there's anyone you could ask them to introduce you to who could advise you about getting into your target industry (frame this very much as 'looking for advice' - it's a lot more pleasant all round than angling for an actual job). Also register for relevant job alerts as this might draw attention to companies you've not heard of

- Twitter is also good for networking but it's a slow burn and warrants a post of its own - let me know if you want to know more

- Don't just target the big companies. Try start ups and spin offs too. Finding them might require a bit of creative googling but look to see who is based at your nearest science park/tech incubator (http://www.ukspa.org.uk/)

- Join relevant mailing lists/job boards - look at JISCmail for suggestions (https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/)

- Seek out a specialist recruiter who might be able to assist you getting into an industry. Again, LinkedIn can be a good place to find these

- Check whether you can still access the career service at your former/current uni for any advice/events

- Go to any formal networking events you can find, but also look on MeetUp for informal things or groups tangentially related to your interests where you can meet people. TedX events might also be good to try

[cont...]

H

HazyJane
8 years ago

[...cont]

- Put a time limit on how long you're going to volunteer in a lab. After a point you're probably not gaining anything additional and they're just exploiting you

- If you're willing to use your free time to do things which will enhance your CV, consider doing a MOOC (free course) in something related to bioinformatics or a quantitative analysis skill (e.g. learn R, python, SQL) as this might add in some extra options for you. If you're not sure what to choose, look at adverts for jobs that interest you and see if you have any obvious skill gaps you could plug via this approach.

At the end of the day, getting a job is not just about what you put on paper but how you find out about opportunities and make connections with people. There are all sorts of negative stereotypes around networking but some of them just amount to snobbery. The internet has levelled the playing field a lot when it comes to making connections with people or organisations. Take advantage!

Good luck :)

P

pm133
8 years ago

Quote From Solo:
Further to the linked post. I've been trying to get a job in science for 18 months. I have about 18 months/2 years experience and Msc in Genetics. I've had over 20 interviews, I've not gotten a job offer. I'm currently doing voluntary research at the local university to boost my CV. The feedback I usually receive is "You were good, there was someone better." I don't know if they're fobbing me off. The custom feedback I get sometimes is far more complimentary and definitely makes me feel better.

I'm looking for information on how to best apply for industry jobs. I'm good at academic applications, but I rarely get ANY reply from industry. rejection or no. I can't find any contact details to get feedback, nor do I know many people in industry to get information on what I'm doing wrong.

I'm not that ambitious, I just want an entry level lab job in genetics that I feel I'm qualified for. A PhD student recently explained that almost EVERY job in industry or academia requires a PhD now, whether entry level or otherwise. I was passed over for a job a few months ago for a completely fresh undergraduate [not from the same uni, she applied just like me]. I really don't want to do a PhD JUST to get an entry level job, I feel forced into it and a PhD is tough enough without hating every second.

Frankly I'm getting disillusioned. I've spent 2 years doing everything I possibly can, and feel I haven't moved forward. Anyone who has experience of industry, can they please help with advice on applications, job requirements, or even places to apply? I know about the major companions [Pfizer, Roche, GSK, Astro, Isogenica] and I check Newscientist etc for other jobs.

Sorry for rambling, but help would be appreciated.

http://www.postgraduateforum.com/thread-47918

I think you are asking for the wrong type of help.
If you have had 20 interviews then clearly the problem isn't your CV.
I would suggest that it's probably your performance at interview which is the issue because if you've been invited along then your lack of a PhD has already been made irrelevant. Now it's all about how you perform on the day.
You need someone to help you assess how you come across in front of an employer.
I don't know who you are and can only go by your post above but you sound desperate for any old job. It is very likely that an experienced recruiter will smell this a mile away and make the decision that you are not interested in what their company gets out of hiring you but more about what you get out of being hired.
You also mentioned not being ambitious. Again that could come across in an interview as a very unattractive quality in a candidate.
Only you will know if I am in the right ballpark here but hopefully I've given you something to think about.

S

Solo
8 years ago

Quote From HazyJane:
*SNIP* [cont...]

Maybe I'll do a PhD, but I guess I don't like the idea of needing such a high bar to entry on even entry level jobs.

1.) Doing that right now, been digging around on Google and got some contacts with industry experience I can use for feedback.
2.) Also working on LinkedIn, although I'm not good for it.
3.) I don't really use Twitter at all thanks
4.) I target any company, big ones are just easiest to find.
5.) Thanks for the mailing list suggestion, I've already got about 10 setup, but I'll look at yours too.
6.) Also done this, got about 4 industry agencies regularly contacting me.
7.) Spoke to careers at my old uni, they "struggled with suggestions as you're already doing everything we can think of."
8.) Good idea on the informal meetups, thanks.
9.) You're right, mostly. When there's nothing else to learn, then I start looking at other options. Still one or two things I want from this lab before moving on.
10.) R and Python are on my list of things to learn, probably R next. Thanks for the suggestion on MOOC.

Quote From pm133:
[quote]*SNIP.

1.) The feedback I get from interviews is positive and well prepared I was. I'm looking for interview training/info at the moment aswell.

2.) And I guess I do sound a bit desperate, but after 2 years of unemployment I guess that's understandable.
3.) As for ambition: I guess we have different definitions of ambition, what I mean is: I'm not overreaching on my job applications, I only target jobs I can do.

S

Solo
8 years ago

Can anyone else offer suggestions or advice please? I'd be interested in hearing suggestions or insight from others.

P

pm133
8 years ago

Quote From pm133:

*SNIP.

1.) The feedback I get from interviews is positive and well prepared I was. I'm looking for interview training/info at the moment aswell.

2.) And I guess I do sound a bit desperate, but after 2 years of unemployment I guess that's understandable.
3.) As for ambition: I guess we have different definitions of ambition, what I mean is: I'm not overreaching on my job applications, I only target jobs I can do.

I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move.

Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water.

As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me.
Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.

C

chickpea
8 years ago

I agree with the above post about the person specification - I used to apply for jobs only if I met *everything* on the list of essential criteria (the word 'essential' being a fairly clear term, as I thought), but then I read about the research pm133 refers to, and realised I was in the group of people not taking a chance on things. Now I apply if it seems like a job I'd be interested in and could do. If everyone else is having a go then I might as well too!

S

Solo
8 years ago

Quote From pm133:

Quote From pm133:
[quote]*SNIP.

I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move.

Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water.

As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me.
Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.

Fair point on the interview feedback, I'm not dismissing it.

When applying for a job, I usually apply if I have most of the essential skills, or feel I could pick them up quickly. Given my failure so far to get a job in the field when I HAVE all the skills necessary, I don't feel it's a good idea to apply to every job in the world. I do apply for jobs I'm interested in, taking long chances.

A

AOE26
8 years ago

As an employer (with 2 positions currently open) there are a few criteria people must meet. They MUST have the essential skills I list. If it is a technical role then that is simple, more senior roles where they are soft skills then they are harder to judge. Your cv must be near perfect in terms of grammar/formatting etc It's your advert, if you cannot spend a significant amount of time honing it you lack the attention to detail I require. That is to get to interview stage.

OP probably has these boxes ticked as they are getting to interview stage.

What do I look for then? Again, if it's a technical role you will probably get a technical test/grilling from one of my colleagues. Pass that you will then get to see me. I am a huge believer in 'hire the attitude - train the skill' (with a caveat of you probably have the skill as you passed the test :) ) So I want enthusiasm/passion for what you do and want to do - without being desperate. It's near impossible to give people enthusiasm - you need to bring that one! I want to see your personality in an interview, I need to know how you will fit in the team. It does neither of us any good if you ace the interview being someone you are not.. you won't make it through your probation and it will be a waste of everyone's time - so be genuine.

Not every job needs someone with a mountain of ambition. Why? Each time someone out shines me and moves on to better things I have recruit again!!! Ok that is a bit tongue in cheek.. but you get the idea.

I only have 55 words left so I'll wrap it up by saying - match the skills, have the right attitude, be genuine and have a wash and clean your shoes before the interview.

Good luck!

P

pm133
8 years ago

Quote From AOE26:
As an employer (with 2 positions currently open) there are a few criteria people must meet. They MUST have the essential skills I list. If it is a technical role then that is simple, more senior roles where they are soft skills then they are harder to judge. Your cv must be near perfect in terms of grammar/formatting etc It's your advert, if you cannot spend a significant amount of time honing it you lack the attention to detail I require. That is to get to interview stage.

OP probably has these boxes ticked as they are getting to interview stage.

What do I look for then? Again, if it's a technical role you will probably get a technical test/grilling from one of my colleagues. Pass that you will then get to see me. I am a huge believer in 'hire the attitude - train the skill' (with a caveat of you probably have the skill as you passed the test :) ) So I want enthusiasm/passion for what you do and want to do - without being desperate. It's near impossible to give people enthusiasm - you need to bring that one! I want to see your personality in an interview, I need to know how you will fit in the team. It does neither of us any good if you ace the interview being someone you are not.. you won't make it through your probation and it will be a waste of everyone's time - so be genuine.

Not every job needs someone with a mountain of ambition. Why? Each time someone out shines me and moves on to better things I have recruit again!!! Ok that is a bit tongue in cheek.. but you get the idea.

I only have 55 words left so I'll wrap it up by saying - match the skills, have the right attitude, be genuine and have a wash and clean your shoes before the interview.

Good luck!

Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed.
Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills?
How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?

P

pm133
8 years ago

Quote From Solo:

Quote From pm133:

Quote From pm133:
[quote]*SNIP.

I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move.

Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water.

As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me.
Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.

Given my failure so far to get a job in the field when I HAVE all the skills necessary, I don't feel it's a good idea to apply to every job in the world.

Leaving aside the bit about applying for every job in the world because nobody is suggesting that, your logic is flawed here. Getting a job is largely a numbers and probability game. Just because you cant get jobs where you have 100% of the skills doesnt necessarily mean you cant get jobs where you only have 40% of the skills. It just doesnt work like that. You may find an employer who will be happy to hire someone cheaper and be prepared to train you.This is very common.

A

AOE26
8 years ago

Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed.
Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills?
How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?

I would list 3 essential skills. Without those you cannot do the role(s) I have. If after 6 months no one had those skills I would have to re-evaluate the role I have available - is the compensation the blocker? Does the combination I require compliment each other? Is it a location issue? Remember these are essential - I do not use the word lightly! I am happy to be flexible/train the next 15 skills!

What I usually find is that the role I have is fairly industry standard but people kid themselves they have the skills. They have the buzzword on their cv, know roughly what it means but when you push them for their experience they have none.

Not wanting to sound ancient but in my time I have employed 40-50 people I'd guess. It's not a particularly enjoyable process, agents are woefully unskilled - I may as well vet all the cv's myself. Candidates seem unable to write 2-3 pages of a cv without a plethora of errors - I am not joking when I say I have seen probably 20 cv's that have a personal summary at the beginning about being a great communicator only for that statement to be grammatically wrong! People not turning up for interviews.. or clearly lying.. or unable to look smart for an hour.

Remember you may be nervous as the candidate but what the interviewer wants is to walk into the room and meet someone they like, matches their cv and is trustworthy.

A

AOE26
8 years ago

Maybe I should offer my time to one person on here who is struggling to get a job in 'industry'!!! Check their cv and give them a mini interview (at my offices) to see where I can help them.

My area is IT - if anyone needs help drop me a pm.