======= Date Modified 16 58 2010 19:58:39 =======
You may remember me from a while back - serious doubts about my PhD and decided to quit. Massive step... deferred to MSc and managed to get a new job. (Original thread title was 'Seriously Thinking About Quitting' and it was quite a saga)

Well.... months and months later, I have finally finished my MSc report - it is ALL done, the weekday nights are my own again! The job is amazing in every way - in charge of my projects now and out of the rut I was in during research, plus the pay is good lol. I feel MUCH MUCH better about myself and life in general - I can't believe I would still have 2 years to go if I'd stayed on with the PhD - and now Im getting more experience than I thought possible in industry (engineering).

Anyway, I was really in a miserable place back then before I quit, but I must say things have worked out perfectly - I could not be happier! For me the PhD was the wrong route to go - stressed out, working all the time, trying to convince myself it was good, setting myself little treats etc for getting work done - but what a farce! Getting a real job was the best thing I ever decided to do - good luck to those of you doing research, but it wasn't for me - and keep an eye on the jobs front... it's shockingly bad out there - I was lucky to have a lot of practical engineering experience!

So that's me signing out and ready to take up new hobbies in addition to my guitar playing. I toyed with the idea of an MBA in future but I'm learning so much about business as it is and I believe, like degrees, the value of an MBA is dropping due to the sheer volume studying for one. Instead I plan to learn an extra skill in my spare time to perhaps supplement income, and look at jobs outside of the UK where taxes will be lower and housing a tad more affordable.

I received tens of e-mails in response to my first thread - a few helpful people, so thanks!! And many more revealing their complete misery at the thought of their PhD - all of whom continued with them! My advice would be to listen to your heart - I put off quitting for so long because I listened to my head (recession, lack of employment etc) - but a PhD is a real slog, and you should be honest with yourself whether or not if it's for you. Good luck to those that are enjoying theirs!

That's it! See you!

Excellent result! Very pleased for you. I left a PhD in 1996 for health reasons, so a bit different from your circumstances, but like you I knew it was the right thing for me to leave, so I totally respect anyone else who makes that decision, for whatever reason.

======= Date Modified 17 Mar 2010 09:15:37 =======
Thanks so much - did you ever go back into a PhD?
Personally I'd rather be a truck driver - at least you'd be getting £35k and no staying up until midnight marking essays! Nobody in my current company rates them - in fact they see them as a disadvantage in many respects - and I must admit I'm glad to be out and doing real applicable work.
Glad you got out and felt better about it :) It really is such a big decision - and as soon as I made it I felt so much better. If anything it built my character no end - which wouldn't have happened had I been working under stress, convincing myself things were fine otherwise. Shows you did what was right for you - so well done! I do wonder how those who pm'd me so long ago and decided to stay on are actually getting on, and whether they feel it will benefit them in future.

Hey guitarman. Glad it's worked out so well for you, I agree it really does pay to listen to your instincts. I'm finishing up my phd just now but looking at leaving academia after, so your positivityt about work elsewhere is very cheering.

Hi Guitarman,

I'm going to say something which probably won't be very popular. Whilst I'm very glad to see that you are enjoying your new job and lifestyle, I do feel you are being slightly disparaging towards those who are continuining with their PhDs: comparing them to a 'real job' and 'real applicable work', for example. I would never, ever knock somebody who decided to leave their PhD so I feel perhaps you could be more understanding of those who have decided to carry on.

@KeepCalm - I entirely agree with you and I have sensed this tone in many of Guitarman's previous posts.

======= Date Modified 17 Mar 2010 11:52:56 =======
I do wish those who continue with their PhDs well - but after my experience I freely admit I am not a fan of them. I do also admit to being a tad confrontational in a few posts as it can be frustrating getting few replies after such a saga as I've been through, and to see other threads with plentiful replies on how to 'stick to it' when I believe many people would be best off doing otherwise - one girl e-mailed me 5 months ago saying she had suicidal tendencies but continued on after support on the forum, which I believe was the wrong path for her and irresponsible of those giving the advice (admittedly she did not reveal this on the public forum but the consensus seems to be 'stick to the PhD' over do what feels right). Certainly when I was in a state, 80% of the advice recommended I stay on, which would have been completely the wrong advice.

With respect to 'real work' - I understand your take on this. I'm sure a lot of PhDs are very useful - though considering the farce that is the uni 50% target, the decline of real industry in the UK etc, I'm strongly of the mind that what we need is more engineering, industry, apprenticeships, exports. I view these as being fundamental to any real recovery, producing things that people want to buy, which is why I favour the old-school rigorous subjects. I've worked at four engineering companies, and each time the research student would be in a corner doing something nobody really knew or cared about, getting little team interaction and not learning so much from people about the 'real' job. Now I'm in charge of projects and have to liaise with customers, get designs out on time that really matter using practical rules of thumb, and the differences are stark with what I see many PhDs do. I'm sorry if my opinion on this is disheartening - a large part of the reason I believe research isn't respected as much as it should be (and this from the views of most engineers I've worked with) is that funding doesn't come from where it should, i.e. industry. This is the real driving force which produces money and 'useful' products and if it were to fund research, I believe it would be a whole lot more relevant.

To some degree I think even a degree is a bit abstract. I definitely needed mine as the work is pretty hardcore and complex - but in many cases I strongly believe in simply leaving school to get an apprenticeship. The split is 50/50 between PhDs I know who are about to finish - half loved their research and half can't wait for it to be over. Unfortunately none of them are going into academia as the positions are like gold-dust and the risk:reward ratio is pretty poor compared to getting a job.

I am definitely glad if you're enjoying what you do, so don't mistake me here. It's great that people can pursue what they love - and hopefully it'll all be worth it in the end. I think it's good to have people with all sorts of different perspective on here - certainly I was glad of the few who backed me up all those months ago. Whether the tone is for or against research, it doesn't really matter - and it shouldn't. It's what we all have to contribute that counts.

Hi Guitarman,

well done on your decision and I'm glad it has worked out so well for you.

I'm not taking sides here because I believe you have to do what's right for you, and obviously for you, leaving the PhD was the right decision.

All I want to say, is that if we all quit at the first hurdle no-one would get anywhere with life. I think the support given by members of this forum is extremely useful in helping people to see the bigger picture, and yes, that might not be right for some, but for others it acts as a sort of virtual hug... the reassurance needed to keep going. The key is that it is the individual who makes the decision in the end, and you cannot criticise them, or those who gave them support in making that decision. Each to their own and all that.

I agree with Teek and PhDbug that your post could be interpreted as a criticism of all of us who decide to carry on with their PhD's, and I don't think that's fair. I'm sure it wasn't intended that way, but that's how it comes across. Everyone has low points during their research, but that's by no means a reason for everyone who experiences this to quit, which seems to be what you are saying. I for one feel like my lows point have made me a stronger person, and know for a fact that I would have nothing but regret if I had quit because I felt miserable at some point.

I am glad that you are happy now in your job and have left.

But I would say that your emphasis on product, financial generation, and customers is very specific to your industry. Sometimes a PhD is not about generating those things. I do not think that all knowledge needs to be instrumental.

Also, the reason that many people stay stick to it is because whilst doing a PhD it is a rollercoaster of emotions and stresses, and it is entirely possible to want to quit one month - and love it the next. Obviously on a forum of doctoral students there is going to be a bias to advising people to stick it out. That is unsuprising given that everybody on the forum, including you, was at one point - or still is - enrolled on a PhD. Forums readers should take any advice with a pinch of salt and their own decision making processes -so any forum can hardly be held accountable for advising students to stay/go.

Anyway, best of luck. Glad things have worked out for you. Although I have stayed with my PhD, my boyfriend really hates and struggles with his and is trying to decide whether to stay or leave. I actually think he should leave, but it is his own decision and I tell him that offering both options (whilst concealing that I don't think he should really have started!)

Best wishes

Good points all round :)
I will bow out now - and wish you all the best of luck with your futures :)

Guitarman

Not to worry Guitarman:

Not surprisingly you will find that many who immediately dismiss you with contempt clearly already feel that typical insecurity about themselves as phd students--and deep down they see some threatening truth in what you are saying--in order to simply feel the need to refute with such passion. A case of protesting too much, that I too have been guilty of in the past.

For once one becomes part of the world of academia one must fight tooth and nail to protect even its falsehoods, let our own identities come into question. It is not until we realize that this is an artificial world, and explore the many other potential identities out in the real world, that the truth of much of what you are saying can possibly become apparent.

Rest assured you are doing a service in terms of poking some holes into the religion of higher education and at some point some of these folks may thank you, or regret not listening sooner. At the very least, it is refreshing to hear another perspective that should clearly be welcomed in an academic arena. To simply dismiss you on a personal level would be to engage in the same type of petty quarrels that far too often occupy academia, in the absense of any real purpose or outcome. As is often suggested, disputes in academia that are only as fierce as they are because there is often so little at stake...that is, beyond weak egos.

I wish you well as you seem genuinely happy, and that is clearly the most that we can hope for in life.:-)

(Bug gently clears her throat and leaves the room..)

Karl - all I can say is thanks!
Good luck in your life.

Guitarman

Why would you reply to such an old thread?

And why is it so difficult to believe that some people enjoy their PhD's?

I realize that this thread is a bit old but as a few have reposted, I'll put my 2 cents in.

It's excellent that you have found what makes you happy and that's a job in industry. However, I should add that regarding engineering jobs, what you've said isn't completely true. I'm doing a PhD in Engineering and it's industrial based, so hopefully it will be worthwhile. Additionally, before embarking on my PhD, I had a job interview with an engineering company who admitted that although they wished to interview me having only a masters degree, most of their employees held a PhD (I didn't get the job).

I guess what I want to say is that, a job isn't necessarily better than a PhD and neither is a PhD better than a job. There are pros and cons to each. I was very happy working for an engineering company but I decided to change direction and do a PhD because I realised I would be much happier doing it. I'm earning less that what I was but I'm much happier.

I agree with you though, that people should not be forced to continue with their PhD if they're really struggling.

All the best with your job and guitar

CB