This question is mainly directed at those studying arts/ humanities/ social sciences... Are you and most of your fellow PhD students all hoping to get into academia? If so, do you ever find the idea of so many similarly qualified people going for a finite number of jobs daunting? I know that all job sectors only have a certain amount of positions available, but lecturing/ research positions seem particularly limited - are you all fairly confident of getting work when you finish your PhD? Do you have a back-up plan? Have any of you secured jobs in this sector, and if so, how? I'm still only considering going for a PhD - being a lecturer is the dream, but I'm a bit concerned about putting three extra years into something only to find getting a job impossible. I don't want to sound like getting the PhD would only be a means to an end as I love my subject and know I would enjoy the challenge academically, but I'm already a mature student and don't want to use up another three years and several thousand pounds only to end up in a similar position as I would have been with an undergraduate degree. Any advice/ shared experiences appreciated....

It depends what you're doing now and how mature you actually are.... if you're nearing retirement age then maybe it's not a great idea to do a PhD for career reasons, though we do have two retired students doing theirs for pure pleasure (presumably). If you're using that 'official' definition of mature - what is it, 25 and over or something? then it depends on how long you are thinking of working for - will you be happy doing an unfulfilling job for the next 30 years or so, or do you want to give something else a go?

How different is what you're currently doing now to what you want to do? If being a lecturer is your dream, where do you want to be doing it? You don't have to do a PhD and work in higher education, there are other parts of it you could teach in - FE, adult education, school age kids, the private sector - it depends on what your subject is and what level you want to be teaching at.

Yes, the job market is competitive, but doing a PhD helps you get into it - you become an 'expert' in your field. You are likely to get teaching experience related to your subject, so that's a toe in that door. All the jobs I would like expect applicants to have PhDs and a good research profile, as well as the ability to teach, so not doing one wouldn't be an option these days. I already work in academia, but I haven't always - had a gap for a while doing something completely different to my academic background, so doing my PhD helped me get back into it. I know what I ought to do after completion to end up with a job I would like and I know it will be a lot of work, but there's no point in not trying. Anyway, sometimes opportunities pop up along the way and it turns out fine, but in a way you didn't envisage. I'd hate to be a little old lady full of regrets about what I didn't do in my life, when it's all too late to try, but it's different for everyone I guess.

Doing a PhD is no guarantee of a job, unless you are prepared to do lots of post doc positions in the first instance, to build up your research profile. Doing a PhD so that you can lecture in universities is really a waste of your research apprenticeship. Ideally, post doctorates look for jobs with high research element and low teaching hours. Pure research positions and a permanent one as well is the holy grail which very few attain.
Age is relative. 25 and above is certainly not considered mature. They are adult spring chickens with lots to learn. Also, thinking that you are an expert in your area upon completion of the thesis is a fallacy. Perish that thought. Better be a fool now than for the rest of your life.
Doing a PhD needs courage and conviction. Think carefully before plunging into one. It could turn out to be a long haul flight and a miserable one, if you are one of the unfortunate ones. ;-)

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Doing a PhD allows specialisation in your field, which is useful for some academic jobs, rather than having a general knowledge of one area. I put the word 'expert' in quotes, as I am aware of it's limitations but I would hope you'd be an expert on your own thesis, however obscure that area. I am nearing the end of my PhD and I am as aware of what I do *not* know, as what I *do* know, and find your implication that I'm a fool quite rude actually. Unless I have just misinterpreted your words through extreme tiredness on my part?

Hiya - cheers for your replies. I'm only in my mid-twenties so am not concerned about it being 'too late' to do a PhD or secure an academic job, I'm just loathe to spend an extra three years struggling by on loans etc then end up in a similar job to one I could get after I finish my first degree. However, as you have said, there's no point just not trying, especially as I really can't see any other type of job making me happy. I'm not interested in FE/ secondary teaching etc - like most people wanting to get an academic job in HE, it's the research aspect which interests me most, and I would be hoping to secure a job in a research intensive university. Really I just wanted a bit of first hand experience of the academic job market i.e. level of competition for jobs, frequency of suitable jobs becoming available, how long it took you to find your job if you have one etc. I look on jobs.ac.uk and other sites occasionally, just out of interest, and there very rarely seems to be jobs advertised in my field (social policy), which worries me slightly...

Hi jb

why did u call yourself a mature student? when I applied for my PHD I was 22, and now that I am starting I am 23. I wonder if the age is OK...I am confused now...who is a mature student? Technically I could have started at 22, by applying at 21, but I did two masters degrees....

Have you looked at the possibility of getting funding for the duration of your studies. In the social sciences the ESRC offers an untaxed award of just under £13k (with the possibility of more depending on your area), plus tuition and a small training allowance. I guess its similar for the arts; try the AHRC website. ESRC funding can also be linked to a masters degree at certain universities.

A person is technically a 'mature student' at 25 I believe. Approximately the posters age.

Can only speak from experience in my area - arts/sociology orientated. Permanent jobs come up rarely and my uni relies heavily on employing academics on short term or casual contracts instead, regardless of their experience or level of qualification. When jobs do come up (once in a blue moon) they seem to go to candidates who either have already been working in that department/uni as a visiting lecturer or in another capacity, so know people there, or to whoever looks a good bet for bringing in external research funding, will be producing highly rated publications and will also be able to supervise other PhD students in the future. It is very competitive and the whole networking thing is very important, in knowing what jobs are coming up before they're advertised and to have some advantage of sorts over other candidates.

It's a bit grim at the moment I suppose, so you have to really want to work in that area to do it. It would be a good idea to read the HE press too, the Times Higher Educational Supplement as well as the Guardian Education to see what's going on in that sector, not just the jobs pages. Good luck with making a decision.

Does that make some of us OAPs then? :-(

Phdbug - I am in the middle of my undergraduate degree and am currently a mature student (as I am over 21). I didn't mean to suggest that I would consider myself 'mature' when going for my PhD, in fact I was kind of hoping to be one of the younger ones after three years of feeling ancient amongst teenagers! I just mentioned it as I have already returned to education at an older age than normal after being in a succession of rubbish, worthless jobs - therefore I feel slightly more anxious than the average 21 year old graduate about not taking the wrong direction now

Actually jb7445, you'd probably be best finishing your first degree really before worrying about a PhD. If you were doing a masters it would make more sense to think seriously about it, but it seems a bit premature really... you might be completely sick of academia by the time you graduate.

Hi Rubyw, thanks for your post above, that was exactly the kind of detailed explanation I was looking for. Yeah I know it probably seems premature to be thinking about a PhD at this point, but my university allows students to skip the masters stage provided the bachelors they have undertaken has a large enough research component, and as I hope to stay at the same university and in the same department I will hopefully be allowed to do just that. So I really would need to think about these things relatively soon.... Just wanted to gather as much info as I could from people in the know before even thinking about making any kind of decision. Cheers again for all your answers!
P.S. - and this is more out of interest than anything - how do people prove that they have 'the ability to attract funding'? I have seen this mentioned several times in job adverts, sector profiles etc and don't understand it; is it based on past performance or on specialism? Just curious....
P.P.S. - one final question - is it really seen as a bad thing to stay at the same university for both undergraduate and postgraduate degrees? Even if that university is one of the best (or the best, depending on the league table) in the country for that subject?

Ability to attract funding can be evidenced at many different levels. As an undergraduate your ability to attract funding will be shown by you securing a studentship or funding for your future PhD and awards that have a money attatched to them. As a PhD student level your ability to get project grants and complete and publish your work (which will attract more funding in the future) are all indicators. As a Postdoc onwards getting large grants is the main source of evidence.
Unfortunately its not that easy with hundreds of people just like you going for the same pot of cash.

That said it can be done, and I have had my fair share of wins and well as losses over the last few years.

Staying at the same uni has its pros and cons. On one hand you learn the lay of the land and everyone gets to know you quicker if you stay so its more comfortable or easier in lots of ways. However, if you move your ability to network and pick up new skills increases significantly and if you leave your uni with lots of mentors and people looking out for you, you can double your prospects for finding jobs/ hearing about projects etc. But it is riskier in the "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" kind of way and may be emotionally more challenging (uprooting, re-establishing yourself etc).

I agree with Badhaircut. You could look at different uni research projects on their websites, as well as details of successful funding bids on the various research funding bodies sites - eg AHRC and ESRC. That would give you an idea of what attracts funding and why, then start thinking about you own area of interest in relation to that. It's not my area, but maybe for eg if it was social policy or criminology, something to do with teenage knife and gun crime would produce a flicker of interest in some places as it's very current.